Draco Inadequatus: Beefing Up 3.x Dragons
Ian Gray was going to be providing a second guest post for us today, but he’s had computer problems during the week and seems to have run out tof time. Fortunately, I had this post in reserve, just in case…

Furioso Dragon 13 by Mac M 13 courtesy Wikipedia Commons
A Sad Truth
Dragons are supposed to be the most awe-inspiring, iconic creatures in D&D – they are half the name of the game after all.
Players should never be willing to attack one on the spur of the moment, in fact they should be willing to go to extraordinary lengths to avoid a direct confrontation.
Sadly, this is not the case with the creatures provided in the 3.x Monster Manual. Instead of thinking tactics and casualties, players – and hence their characters – are thinking “Dragon Hoard”.
To be honest, this isn’t a new problem – I’ve seen the same thing with every edition of D&D that I’ve played (I can’t speak to Pathfinder or 4e on the subject) to a greater or lesser extent.
And, over the years, I’ve taken apon myself in every game to do something about it.
Here, now, are the techniques that I employ to make Dragons, once again, the ultimate menace that they should be.
A Powerboost
The first step is always to give Dragons an age-based boost in power. The following table lives in my Monster Manual next to the entry for Dragons:
Mike’s Draconic Bonuses Table
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No, your eyes are not deceiving you – that really does say “+78 HD” next to the entry for “Great Wyrm” and “+150 HD” next to the entry for Legendary Dragons. In a campaign that did not have Epic Levels, I would divide the entries for HD, Feats, and Stat Bonuses by 3 (rounding up) and the other entries by 2 (rounding down). But my campaigns routinely run to Epic Levels and the capabilities of Dragons should reflect that.
- Age – should be self-explanatory.
- Bonus HD – an increase relative to the figures given in the MM.
- Additional Feats – these can be any feats the Dragon qualifies for – something that is discussed in more detail later in this article.
- Stat Improve – I will usually roll randomly for which stat(s) receive this bonus, just so that there is some differentiation from one dragon to another. But if a Dragon’s reputation is already established, choose accordingly.
- Natural AC – an increase in the natural AC of the Dragon.
- Attack Bonus – This can apply to any of the natural attacks of the Dragon (bite, claw, wing buffet, tail slap, crush, tail sweep). At age group 1, it is applied to 1 attack mode, at age group 2 to two, and so on. Applying it to wings or claws requires 2 age groups. The bonus persists at the level at which it is granted until the Dragon expends an additional improvement on it. Once again, I tend to choose randomly to give each individual dragon some distinguishing differences.
- Damage Bonus – This applies only to those natural attacks which benefit from the attack bonus and persist at the level at which it is granted. In theory, the same system could be applied so that some attacks get extra accuracy and some get extra damage and a few overlap, but that proved too complicated for the benefits.
- Bahamut and Tiamat – These are not always a part of my campaigns, but if they are, they get the “legendary” bonuses. No Dragons not of equivalent status can qualify for that standard. They get the Attack and Damage bonuses to ALL natural attacks.
In addition, each of my campaigns confers additional benefits apon Dragonkind based apon the entries in the table; these are discussed seperately below.
Wyverns – lesser dragonkind
Wyverns are essentially “Dragons Lite”. I differentiate wyverns into the same age categories as Dragons, and apply the bonuses from one age category less – So an adult wyvern would receive the same bonuses as a Young Adult dragon. They also have an additional attack mode, the tail sting, to which they can apply their attack and damage bonuses.
Wyverns tend not to be intelligent, and even if the stat improvement is to intelligence, this is taken to indicate additional cunning, not sentience.
Wyverns do NOT get the benefit of the additional Draconic benefits I mentioned at the end of the previous section.
Magic Item Use
If there’s a magic item in a Dragon’s hoard, they may be able to use it. Armour and Cloaks are obvious no-nos (they won’t fit) as are boots. Gloves can be used from Young Adult onwards. I decide this on a case-by-case basis.
Draconic Vulnerabilities
Each Dragon is also given a vulnerability or weakness. Again, this varies from one to another, and can be anything from Hay Fever through to weakened eyesight through to a missing scale (the “Smaug” vulnerability). Dragons work hard at concealing this weakness, but diligant research and observation may permit PCs to discover it.
A Special Place In History
Dragons should always have a special place in the history of the campaign – no beings of such power can exist without leaving their mark. This special place should also answer the question of why they are not the Rulers Of The World.
Dragon Myths
Another thing that you would inevitably have with beings of such power is a mythos that has built up surrounding them. Defeating any dragonkind of adult size or greater should form the basis of an epic saga, and additional legends would build up concerning the origins and activities of anyone who is even rumoured to have achieved such a feat.
Of course, Dragons are usually smart – sometimes frightningly so – and are quite capable of formulating and distributing their own myths and legends, either in an attempt to hide a vulnerability, to enhance their own fearsomeness, or to spread rumours of a false weakness.
Draconic Hoards
A dragon should use its every ability to protect its hoard, and part of the process of creating the game world should answer the question of why they accumulate hoards in the first place. They clearly fulfill some draconic need (refer back to my article on Alien Races), and that need will impact their personalities both individually and in general. The need can be psychological, biological, physical, educational, social, or even arcane, or any combination of these. These motivations should also impact the contents of the Draconic Hoard, and so the contents of a recovered hoard may well give clues as to the motivation.
Draconic Biology & Society
The final ingredients that I am always careful to consider are Draconic Biology, especially dietary needs and reproduction, and Draconic Society, especially hobbies and interests. These are frequently different from campaign to campaign, usually due to assigning a different role to the draconic hoard.
Only when you really understand the role that Dragons play can you properly assess what other advantages they should receive as part of the overall enhancement package.
The Rings Of Time Solution
The Rings of Time campaign was one thrown together off-the-cuff using ideas that had been originally formulated for my Fumanor Campaign and then discarded, for one reason or another. It ran for about 5 years before being wound down due to my having insufficient time available for game prep. Even so, it took the characters from 5th level to well over 50th level.
In ROT, humanoid Dragons were the real gods, the creators of both Elves and Dwarves; but some of their number had sabotaged the experiment for their own ends. They had an exquisite ettiquette for dealing with this type of problem – they could call apon the services of mortals from the future to investigate, discover the source of the problem, and put things right, but each mortal’s life could only ever be interfered with in this manner once.
Thereafter they would be completely free agents – though, if they abused the power and knowledge they obtained (from the point of view of the gods) they would be considered to constitute a fresh problem and a new set of mortals summoned to provide a solution. There were other technical considerations and limits concerning time travel that had to be taken into account, but that was the heart of the campaign background.
The Dragonoids were technicians and scientists, inspired by the Space Gods of Jack Kirby’s “Fourth World” in his DC comics of the 1970s, with a smattering of Eric Von Daniken and other sources thrown in to spice up the mixture.
But the world had been seeded with eggs whose biology had been interefered with by the rebel dragons to create “super-soldiers” who could be led by them in a war of trans-universal conquest. Much of this plot superstructure was inspired by “The Proteus Operation” by James P. Hogan – I simply cast Dragons in the role of the Nazis (and their future-time backers) from that book.
Dragonoids had immense engineering and scientific know-how, semi-humanoid bodies, and not much in the way of physical capabilities; the degenerate forms of the “super-soldiers” had the characteristics of the Dragons from the Monster Manual, plus the add-ons described above. They were Gestapo and SS and other such groups.
But the genetic engineering was carried out in secrecy and haste by technitions, not true geniuses, and as a result the “supersoldiers” contained a number of design flaws. In particular, they needed rare minerals in their diet that they were incapable of obtaining from nature – they needed bipeds to mine and refine the ores into products that they could consume. As formidible as they were, they were acutely vulnerable once early Dwarves and Elves and Humans learned to protect their valuables, and most of them died out.
Only a few survived into the “modern era” of the game setting, sustained by the arcane arts of Elves that had been corrupted by the rebel Dragonoids, each at the heart of a single Drow Clan.
To offset the depradations of the Chromatic Dragons, the Dragonoids developed Metallic variants of the creations of their rebel kin to aid and protect mortals until they were strong enough to do so themselves. Few of these had survived, either; their inherantly “good” nature was always at odds with their own need to consume refined metal and magic objects, and sooner or later each would overstep the mark and be hunted down, or exile themselves in remorse.
And to protect mortals against their own exiled brethren, they created what mortals considered “The Gods”.
Dragons In Rings Of Time
When considering how Dragons were enhanced in the Rings Of Time campaign, it’s important to distinguish between the Dragonoids (the original Dragons) and the degenerate offspring created by misapplied genetic engineering. The Dragonoids were physically not far superior to human/elven/dwarven norms, but had much greater intelligence and wer capable of anything modern science can achieve, and more. They had computers, they had nerve gas, they had space-based artillery, and so on. They had forcefield restraints and lasers and tectonic exciters to achieve the mountain-building work of eons in a matter of days. But they were essentially lab geeks with no combat skill whatsoever.
Dragons, on the other hand, were quite a different story. In addition to the standard enhancements given at the start of this article, their intelligence would rise until they reached adulthood, and then decline as more and more of their mental faculties were dedicated to operating increasingly complex and unwieldy bodies. For every age category above Young Adult, they would lose 5 points of INT and add 5 points to either STR or CON, with all the attendant consequences. Eventually they reached the point of having an amazing caster level with their spells but would only be able to cast level-0 and level-1 magics.
Allied to this progression, howeever, were a number of specific Feats that dragons could acquire and utilise. One of the most useful converted unusable spell slots into additional hit points or into once-a-day bonuses to attacks and damage or to saves. These converted those “lost” spell slots into additional physical prowess that, when added to the basic bonuses, made Dragons genuinely scary opponants.
And yet, they were second-rate compared to the enhanced draconic versions that have appeared in some of my other campaigns…
The Fumanor Solution – Class Levels
Dragons in Shards Of Divinity hatch in a nest, the location of which varies with the colour of the Dragon. They are voraciosly hungry, and the only food available are the unhatched eggs, so the first to hatch generally consumes the rest of the clutch, shells and all. These nests are usually located near a humanoid settlement of some kind, and nests have been discovered by these residents from time to time, but every attempt to provide food for the hatchlings has resulted in stunted growth both physical and mental; there appear to be some dietary needs that can only be met in this way.
A wyrmling’s instinct is to hide and scavenge for food, while remaining close to the nest. After a period of between two and ten years, they grow enough to enter the Very Young stage of growth. Their flesh becomes malleable and soft, and the dragon is compelled instinctively to seek out a humanoid, or preferably, a group of humanoids. When they encounter such a group, the dragon shape-changes instinctively to appear to be one of their number. In the process, it loses all memory of who and what it is; the humanoid group discovers a child of their own kind, naked and amnesiac, with all the natural abilities of same.
What happens next depends on the nature of the humanoid culture. Some will take the stranger in, others will abuse or kill it or drive it out. Maternal instincts generally provide the Dragon with shelter and a home life, even amongst such parents as Gnolls and Trolls. Over the next twenty years or so, the humanoid dragon makes its way through life as just another member of whatever race it appears to be, gaining in maturity and understanding, and acquiring class levels as does any other member of society.
With each level gained, there is a % chance that some unknown factor in its environment will trigger a return to it’s natural form (3% x total character levels). There is also a 1% per year chance of this occuring, cumulative. In addition, once this chance exceeds 10%, accidental ‘death’ triggers the reversion process. The new “very young” dragon has no memory of its time as a humanoid, and – humanoids being what they are – is almost certainly not in an environment that is ‘natural’ for it, and it will seek to retreat to such an environment as quickly as possible – which may mean going through the bodies of its former companions, if they try and stop it!
The odds are also low that the new home it finds will be the same location as its nest was located. This is important later in its life!
When the Very Young dragon is again ready to enter the next phase of its age cycle, a similar process occurs, though the humanoid form will begin as a physically older specimen matching the age category of the dragon it was – very young child, child, teen, young adult, adult, and so on. Each time, it has no memory of its previous incarnations as a humanoid, though it will remember the skills and abilities it learned in previous incarnations as instinctive reactions; this makes it more likely that the dragon will find itself in a similar class or occupation.
In this way, the dragon acquires a repetoire of class levels. While in Draconic form, it learns to access some of the knowlege and abiltiies learned during one of its humanoid incarnations as conscious knowledge and skill. The “bonus hit dice” from the master table indicates how many levels of ability it can call apon from those past experiences. There are a number of specific draconic feats that enable it to employ these abilities in various ways:
- Class Stack permits the attack bonuses, saving throw improvements, etc, that were learned as a humanoid, to stack with the dragon’s existing values.
- Natural Weapon permits the dragon to employ one of it’s natural attacks as though it were a weapon with which it can apply combat feats learned as a humanoid, including the ability to make multiple attacks in a full attack action.
- Silent Inhale permits a dragon to employ its breath weapon for Sneak Attacks (as per Rogue, requires levels in Rogue or equivalent).
- Hindbrain permits the dragon to employ spells that it learned to cast in humanoid state. These spells must either have no Somatic component or the forebrain must relinquish control of the dragon’s hands and claws to the hindbrain for the round. Similarly, they must have no Verbal componant or the forebrain must relinquish control of the dragon’s voice (and breath weapon) to the hindbrain. Dragons often combine this feat with metamagics to avoid these restrictions.
- Reactive Hindbrain this permits the dragon to roll seperate initiative values and surprise checks for its hindbrain. This can be especially potent as a means of neutralising spellcasting attackers – the hindbrain simply stands ready to counterspell. It also permits the dragon to take “Improved Initiative” a second time.
…and so on.
These abilities, when compounded with class levels and class abilities, and the natural abilities of the dragon, can make them a far more terrifying opponant. For example, the table below compares a standard Juvenile Black Dragon, an Enhanced Juvenile Black Dragon, and an Enhanced Juvenile Black Dragon with 10 levels of Fighter:
The Fumanor Dragon
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Instead of one breath weapon attack, 2 wing buffets, 2 claws, and 1 bite, doing an average total of 36.5 points damage (standard), or the same doing 95.5 points (default enhancement), the Fumanor dragon gets one breath weapon, 2 bites, 4 wing buffets, and 4 claws (+1 to hit, improved critical range) – and who cares that the second of each is at a measly +20 (+21 for the claws) to hit? That’s an average damage total of 162 points, almost all of which is sure to hit it’s target. Or, to look at it another way, that’s slightly more damage to each of 4 attackers as the standard dragon could do IN TOTAL in an average round.
Add to all of this more feats that enhance the breath weapon (worsened saves, double duration, double damage, faster recharge, more uses per day) and by the time you’re talking Mature-plus, even a 20th-level party will hesitate before taking one on – and will certainly baulk at handing the Dragon any extra tactical advantages!
Draconic Memories In Fumanor
As can be discerned from what’s been written above, Dragons have serious problems with long-term memory in Fumanor. For the most recent few days, events are clear; for the past few weeks, the general outline of events is clear; for the past few months, a Dragon has vague recollections; beyond that, everything a dragon knows operates at an instinctive level. This is a species badly in need of a diary.
Fortunately, they have developed one, and one with far more fidelity than perishable words on a parchment. Dragons have learned to store valuable experiences – victories, defeats, comradeship, good times, bad times – in noble metals and magic items. When they fuss over their hoards, Dragons are reliving the events that are important to their sense of identity, and when another dragon (or uncouth collection of adventurers) steals a hoard, they are really stealing that Dragon’s identity from them.
Most react poorly to this, as can be imagined. But the usual response is to obtain some more treasure from somewhere – anywhere will do – in which to record the memory of the theft, enabling the Dragon to persue the thieves for as long as it may take.
The Shards Of Divinity Solution – Spellcasting & Artifacts
I have to be careful in terms of what I write on this subject, because a lot remains unknown to the PCs, some of whom read these articles! Here’s what they DO know:
Dragons invented arcane magic in a time before the Gods. They were the undisputed masters of the art, and were eventually persuaded to teach it to the Elves, who developed much of the theory behind it; the two races collaborated extensively. Dragons created the artifacts that crop up from time to time in the world; Elvish attempts to imitate this art produced many of the more powerful but standard magic items of the world. Then, for reasons yet unkown, the Dragons retreated into isolation and have not been heard from in millennia.
Dwarves then came into contact with Elves and successfully learned the art of crafting magic items from them, though the race was anything but adept at any other form of arcane spellcasting. They then had a falling out with the Elves and severed social and political relations with their former teachers.
Eventually, humans came into contact with the Elves, and a few of them undertook the study of arcane magic, formalising many of the precepts that are associated with Arcane Spellcasting in “modern” times; Elves dismiss much of this as dogma, but have become more insular and are unwilling to identify which parts they consider flawed, and are less willing to share their knowledge and expertise with outsiders.
It is not known whether other races learned arcane spellcasting from the Elves, the Dragons, or developed the art independantly, or even acquired it from Humans.
Dragons are rumoured to still posess and utilise many of the artifacts that they created, as well as powerful magic items gifted them by Elves and Dwarves that may only be operated by those of Draconic Blood. The PCs have encountered at least one item that they would qualify as a Draconic Artifact and found that the humans who posessed it could utilize it imperfectly at best, and with substantial side effects. Even imperfectly used, this was the most powerful magic item that the characters had ever encountered.

"Cute" and "Dragon" should be mutually exclusive in D&D! Clip Art courtesy http://www.free-clip-art.com
They have had contact both prior to and subsequent to that encounter with Elven Crafting and have found it to be impressive, to say the least.
There are legends of Dragons being able to cast multiple spells simultaniously. What the truth of these legends may be is still unknown… at least to them.
Draconic respectability
These three examples of how to restore Dragons to their rightful place as iconic creatures worthy of the respect, fear, and prestige that comes with being part of the very name of the D&D game system in its many incarnations. Using the principles spelt out at the start of this article, and finding new ways to interpret the “enhancements” table, permit these techniques to be employed in any campaign.
A final note on retroactive continuity
Should Dragons already be established at MM power levels within a campaign, I suggest that you take a leaf out of Raymond E Feist’s Magician and subsequent volumes – modern Dragons (the ones that the PCs are used to) are degenerate specimens without the power of their forebears – but somewhere, locked up in some otherplanar timeless holding space, a few specimens of the original species remain, waiting for someone to accidentally unleash them…
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August 9th, 2011 at 7:39 am
I think dragons are powerful enough to be honest. Physically, a full attack from a big enough dragon can easily 1-shot a level-appropriate fighter, let alone a caster. And on that topic, that is actually the key to their power, their spellcasting. A lot of people seem to forget that dragons in 3.5 are powerful spellcasters in addition to melee fighters.
The spell lists and feats have been left out because it is up to the DM to tailor the dragon to the party, and a custom-built caster can always be a huge threat to the party. Especially if said caster also abuses divinations to know everything about the party, including what to prepare to counter them.
For proof, here is a high-optimization play-by-post game vs. a dragon:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571
August 9th, 2011 at 10:31 am
@Robert: Looking over the narrative you point to suggests that many of the tweaks that I describe appear to have been implemented. Page 35, for example, implies that the dragon gets multiple attacks, and attack bonuses of +31 to +35 are very much within the range specified above. I couldn’t see a summary of character classes and levels for those opposing the dragon, but from the initiative results etc I would place them at around 20th level at the time of the encounter, and I see by following the links on the first page that this is correct. They are certainly not at Epic levels.
Nor is there an indication that I could find as to the Age Category of the Dragon, but I would assume that it was Very Old or Ancient. From what I can see, the Dragon, with all its buffing, is about equivalent to a fighter of level 28 or so. A party of that sort of level would make mincemeat of it.
Nor do I see any signs of concern over the possibility of an encounter with a Dragon early in the transcript. There’s some measure of respect for an encounter of that sort of level, but it’s still treated as a tactical problem and not an crisis. They are willing to take it on, instead of being forced into doing so when painted into a corner. They aren’t scared of it.
The way the transcript reads to me, it supports what I have written, rather than arguing against it. The GM has had to work really hard at tailoring and custom-building the dragon to be effective against the party; without such efforts, it would be a walkover.
And that says to me that the dragon is too weak – any dragon which has been tweaked and buffed specifically to take on a party the way this one had been should have been able to pound them into mincemeat. This is as tough as dragons should be against any random group without such tweaking. And that’s what my adjustments are intended to achieve.
Mike recently posted..Draco Inadequatus: Beefing Up 3.x Dragons
August 9th, 2011 at 11:17 am
Lots of interesting ideas here, well worth reading.
My dragons are all about gathering power, physical, magical, knowledge, political so assuming anything about them is dangerous. Also, no typing by color.
August 9th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
@Sean: Thanks Sean, glad you got something worthwhile out of it. Here’s another idea to tantalise those who do type by colour: can dragons of different colour crossbreed? Are the results two-headed dragons? If not, how do the different characteristics (especially breath weapons) combine?
Mike recently posted..Draco Inadequatus: Beefing Up 3.x Dragons
August 9th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Interesting ideas for beefing up dragons. Is the “sad truth” that there shouldn’t be any low-CR dragons in the game, or that dragons as written are weak for their CR?
I typically see more discussion that dragons are too powerful for their given CR than vice versa. A CR 3 black dragon wrymling has pretty comparable stats to a CR 3 ogre, but it’s harder to deal with in it’s environment because of flight and water breathing. A CR 5 young black dragon stats certainly tops a CR 5 troll in every category. Higher CR creatures are more difficult to compare without considering the party or circumstances, so I’ll stop there. Adding bonuses would make the CR even less indicative of the dragon’s expected challenge to a party.
As a player, the fear-factor with dragons has always been that the lack of good info on a dragon’s age makes it hard to guess-timate its abilities until the party strides into it’s lair. Since dragons have such a wide range of development/advancement, a given dragon could easily be a CR 11 (adult) or a CR 20 (wrym) without the local villagers making much distinction, and the party may not know the difference until the fighter goes down under the first full-attack. With most other creatures, you pretty much know what you’re going to get unless the DM has worked hard to make it special, but with dragons they just need to be a little older.
I do like the ideas for making dragons more interesting or as a focal point to the campaign.
August 9th, 2011 at 4:11 pm
@Ivellios: Thanks. The “Sad truth” is that they are underwhelming in comparison to where they should be as icons in the game. If someone wanted to adjust the CR upwards when applying the enhancement techniques that I suggest, I would not have a problem with that.
As for the age, body size and decorative detail (interpreted through bardic knowledge or whatever) is usually enough to define a dragon’s age – unless they are using shape-change magics to keep a surprise up their sleeve or intimidate travellors. By decorative detail, I mean that the scale pattern and spikes on the tail and what-have-you vary from one age group to another.
Mike recently posted..Draco Inadequatus: Beefing Up 3.x Dragons
August 11th, 2011 at 9:10 am
Dragons hold the highest CRs in the MM by several points. At the upper end of their development they are already the toughest creatures in the book. The younger dragons are presented so that we don’t have to wait until the PCs are level 16+ to even use dragons as challenges.
Body size and appearance are good indicators of age/power, but as I said, the party typically needs to already be in its lair (and in deep do-do) before those characteristics can be noted. If the PCs run off into the hills chasing villagers’ stories about the dragon who burned their village, they could easily get more than they bargained for — which is just as it should be with dragons.
August 11th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
Black Dragons have CRs of between 3 and 22, according to the MM. That gives the average Black dragon a CR of 12½. Blue Dragons range from 3 to 25, with an average of 14. Green, 2-24; Red 4-26.
What that says to me is that in their upper age categories they may be the biggest and meanest things in the MM, but that doesn’t mean anything when you bring in Epic Levels. How long would your CR26 red dragon last when confronted by a PC of level 30 or 40 or 50?
In a world with such characters, and creatures that can pose a challenge to them, dragons start to look pretty irrelevant. The ELH has creatures with CRs of up to 70; a dragon’s 24 or 26 puts them on the wimpy end.
But the primary reason for implenting the changes that I have described – and raising the CR if you feel it necessary – remains the attitude that players show toward Dragons. As I said at the start of the article, there is no fear for their characters; and dragons are not given the respect they deserve. They are icons who are not iconic, and shadows of what they should be. Everything else is simply a game mechanic to restore them.
In AD&D, Great Wyrms were terrifying. You needed a party of 10-12 characters of level 20 to be sure of taking them out. In 3.x, a party of 4 would have little hesitation in going after one, and would certainly expect to win, regardless of what the CR suggests. That’s what I have experienced – repeatedly, with different groups of players – and what I set out to change.
Mike recently posted..By The Seat Of Your Pants: Adventures On the Fly
August 11th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
ELH p179 – Dragon, Advanced. ELH p181 – Dragon, Epic. CRs up to 66 if epic level play is your bag.
Maybe you’re referring to 2nd Ed. (which I never played), but the 1st AD&D dragons were pretty wimpy compared to demons and devils with their tougher ACs, spells, magic resistance, psionics, save or die abilities, etc. That’s thankfully been fixed in 3rd Ed, putting wyrms back on top (of the core rules at least).
August 11th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
My AD&D experience was exactly the opposite – I found most Demons to be fairly wimpy in comparison to Dragons, simply because there was a character class (the cleric) specifically designed to oppose the former, but no character class that targetted Dragons.
When I was persuaded by my players at the start of the Fumanor campaign to use 2nd Ed instead of 1st, I definitely found that Dragons had been wimped; that was when I developed and implemented the first draft of the enhancement table given at the top of the article.
When I first looked at Dragons in 3.0, I noticed that they had been upgraded somewhat, and expected to be able to do away with the enhancement table as you suggest; but player attitudes in the first 3.x encounter were all wrong, and my players beat the Dragon easily, despite – in theory, according to the CRs – its having no chance. The revised table shown has been party of my campaigns ever since.
You might think it goes too far, but the reaction of my players to a Dragon now is one of wary respect. They will still attack one if necessary, and usually win (or at least get away) with some difficulty, but they won’t go out of their way to fight with one. It’s that attitude that was my objective and the enhancements achieve it.
Mike recently posted..By The Seat Of Your Pants: Adventures On the Fly
August 12th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
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August 30th, 2011 at 8:49 am
I sure wish that Robert had posted “For proof, here is aN UNFINISHED high-optimization play-by-post game vs. a dragon,” I just wasted a lot of time (and so did they).
September 11th, 2011 at 8:03 am
I have habitually given ALL dragons damage reduction – from wyrmling up to juvenile have DR 1/magic, DR 2/magic, DR 3/magic, DR 4/magic respectively – and Frightful Presence – with a lower save of course for the ages that don’t normally have it – along with some way to cast anti-magic field a limited number of times per day depending on age.
Then, with them being the intelligent creatures they are, I have them make particular use of their ability to fight either in the air AND/OR underwater. Draconian I know, but it makes then a little longer-lasting when I do.
January 26th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
I think the idea that a DM should make his players fear something, dragons or whatever, is a flawed concept to begin with. Add in the fact that every campaign is different: how much magic do you allow, what classes are allowed or played, are you Monty Hall with treasure or do you skimp, and all the other things that make each campaign different. What I see here is a DM building his own crisis. If you run a campaign strictly out of tye books, using stock rules, treasure rates, magic availability, and no house rules (any DM whose campaigns “regularly” run into epic levels is almost certainly using some house rules) then the dragons straight out of the MM will be just fine. If you have 5 players or some other imbalance, there are limitless options within 3.x rules to up the challenge… adding HD is something built into stock rules… every dragon age category has a range of HD. Adding class levels is appropriate, as is adding some very special abilities that you just “give” the dragon for free, such as permanant true sight. As for the epic campaign, any campaign with level 30 characters running around is definitely not covered in standard rules, so why should anyone think that a standard monster would be appropriate?
January 26th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
@Scott: So, at first level, or 5th level, characters should not fear or respect Dragons? Because that’s what you are suggesting. There should ALWAYS be something that the characters consider dangerous in a campaign, and because they are so iconic, I happen to think that Dragons should be amongst the ranks of such. But the numbers, as provided in the MM, don’t bear that out.
If you can’t see, or don’t agree, that when encountering what are themost seminal creatures in the books, there is something wrong with an attitude of “Good, they have lots of loot” being the initial reaction of the players, there’s not a lot of point arguing it.
As for 30th level characters, your statement suggests that the Epic Level Handbook, which was amalgamated with the 3.x core rules, is not standard play. That doesn’t make much sense to me either – if it was released by WOTC then it is “official”, or at least an “official option”. For the record, the incident in question occurred with 3 PCs of 12th level, as I recall, and the Dragon in question was right in the midrange of the age categories, or slightly higher.
I would rather have a situation in which there are 30th level characters than one in which the highly-artificial “You’re 20th level, so you can’t get any better” arises. “I don’t care if we’re in the middle of the campaign and it makes no sense, retire that character and make a new one.”
I find it interesting that as soon as you have finished suggesting that there is no need to extend the abilities of Dragons, you then suggest adding character levels as something that’s “appropriate”, even though – as other commentators have pointed out – this is not standard rules. But it is one of the solutions that I’ve recommended in the article. So on the one hand you disagree and on the other you recommend the same thing that I propose?
For my money, Dragons should engender respect from the PCs, regardless of what level the characters are. Unless they are going up against extremely young versions, there should be somg concern expressed. If the PCs win against such a foe, they should at least know that they have been in a fight. I don’t consider that to be a flawed concept, and I’m not sure of why you do.
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March 1st, 2012 at 4:30 pm
@Mike
Hi again, BTW. :)
So saying that PC’s (or indeed players) should fear or respect (you seem to use the two interchangably) any particular monster is just a DM thinking like a DM and not like a player. A good DM thinks like both at all times. I maintain that it’s a flawed concept that you should try to “make” your players afraid of something. That sounds more like a DM power trip than a game flaw. If your 5th level PC’s don’t seem afraid of a CR5 dragon, then lets take a step back and have a close look at your game. Do you have a group of 4 PC’s? Are they all 5th level? Is there a balanced mix of classes? Are your players powergamers? Are they role players? Do they like or dislike the tactical aspect of your chosen ruleset? Do they have the recommended amount of magic for 5th level PC’s? Are they standard races? These questions and more must be answered before any DM worth his salt can rightly say a monster in the rules is too weak. And don’t forget that the PC’s are SUPPOSED to win. All things being equal, if they die then it’s not a very fun game. If every dragon the PC’s encounter is a major pain, at every level, then the players will quite correctly start feeling like there is an issue of DM preference.
But if you play a fair game, using all the tools in your DM toolbox, you can make anything you want. If you have a group of PC’s for which a stock CR5 dragon is not a challenge, then you need to be better at planning the encounters, not beef up the dragon (though there is really no “wrong” solution that is also fair, fun and consistant). Add some minions to the encounter. Add challenging terrain, weather or other environmental circumstances. Tailor the dragon’s loot to his combat style. Add a couple hit dice. There are tons of things yiu can do to up the challenge, all within the rules, that will make the encounter more memorable and fun without munchkinizing your enemies just for the sake of striking fear into the players. You know, PC’s are often fearless. They’re more fun that way. And players know what’s really going on in the game. You won’t succeed in making your game more fun by making them artificially afraid of dragons. And what’s really more important is that it’s not the dragons that the players truly fear then.
Scott
March 1st, 2012 at 4:44 pm
I forgot that an encounter of a CR equal to the PC level is supposed to be relatively easy. A good challenge would be to use the CR5 dragon for a 5th level party plus add in the minions, terrain and environmental challenges. Make the red dragon fight inside a volcano. Make the green fight underwater. Make the blue take to the desert sands. Toss in a few trolls a handful of orcs and whamo… those 5th level PC’s will think twice about assaulting the dragon in his lair. Which brings something else to mind… when the PC’s start scheming to get the dragon out of his lair and fight at a disadvantge, that’s exactly the kind of playing you should reward, perhaps by allowing an easier than usual victory. Let the PC’s fear the dragon not because they know you cheated to beef them up, but because they are both cunning and tough oponents. I should add that having an element of fear is not always a bad thing – as long as it’s for the right reasons.
March 1st, 2012 at 5:11 pm
@Scott – Hi!
The planning you describe is exactly the sort of play that I want to encourage. I agree, a CR 5 dragon opposed by a 5th level party should be a reasonably fair contest, after terrain etc is taken into account. But when a 5th level party encounter a Dragon that’s CR13 or thereaboutes, their first thought should not be the loot.
I don’t actually use the terms “fear” and “respect” interchangeably – I use “fear” for what the PCs should feel and “respect” for what the players should feel when confronting a Dragon. My point, which seems to have gotten lost in the discussion, is that Dragons should be iconic. When the characters defeat one, they (and their players) should feel like they have achieved something noteworthy. It’s not as thought I am systematically pumnping up every encounter in the book, I’m talking about one specific type of creature.
Fights with a dragon should be the stuff of in-game legend. But dragons, as things stand in the rulebook, are easily overshadowed.
Nor am I bumping dragons up without adjusting their CR and hence the rewards for success. The arguement is that the range of CRs for dragons need to be systematically increased, with abilities increased commensurately. Everything that you propose (except th environmental hazards) also increases the CR, but does so by watering down the central concepts of Dragons, which are (with exceptions) not the types to have a bunch of servants hanging around to do their fighting for them.
Bottom line: these adjustments work. They don’t make Dragons impossible to defeat. They don’t take the place of the sort of tactical planning that an intelligent creature should make in order to maximise their advantages and minimise their weaknesses. But they do restore Dragons to a relative preeminance in which the reaction is no longer “A Dragon’s Lair? Cool Beans, lots of loot!”.
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March 1st, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Sorry for all the posts, but adding class levels to dragons (and nearly anything else with an intelligence more than 2) is in fact covered in RAW. But what you are suggesting in your article isn’t “using the tools of the DM to beef up dragons” but rather making up obsurd home brew rules, and not with tho purpose of making it a fun, fair and consistant encounter but just to beat fear into the players.
As for epic levels, there is no reason that a great wyrm fighter 20 (or 30, or 40, etc) can’t exist, even by RAW. And though you defensively list some epic rulebooks Mike, you simply cannot deny that those tables you made up are “house rules” exactly as I described. :)
I never said that dragons shouldn’t be fearsome oponents Mike, or that PC or players (admit I sometimes use them interchangably) shouldn’t have a healthy respect for dragons. It’s the thought that you should make players fear them merely because you think so that’s the thing me and others havea problem with, and the arbitrary and non-consistant way that you go about it. I will admit though that the only thing that really matters is that the game is fun for everyone, including the DM. If you have fun this way and the players like it, then it’s not really “wrong”.
March 1st, 2012 at 5:46 pm
I don’t have a problem with the number of posts, Scott!
Again, you confuse the intended effect on players with the intended effect on characters. I want the players to respect Dragons as a tactical problem, and to realise that one or more of their characters can easily be killed when they encounter one. To me, that translates as a certain level of fear on the part of the player characters – not necessarily to the point at which it becomes crippling, or even a serious handicap, but present nevertheless.
I can certainly deny that the tables are “absurd” house rules, as you’ve described them, though they are definitely house rules. I make no apologies for that.
I don’t list the epic rulebooks defensively, at least to my mind; I’m saying flat-out that in any game that uses epic level rules, Dragons need to be beefed up or they will become Just Another Encounter. I am also saying that even without the epic level rules, there is still a problem with Dragons.
Your comment contradicts itself between its first and last paragraphs. Anything the GM chooses is fair game, according to the rules – so this approach IS using the “tools of the GM”. I certainly don’t hide these adjustments from the players – actually, I make sure they are very well aware of them.
Finally, I disagree as to your characterisation of the purpose of the change; it is in fact intended to make Dragons measure up as worthy adversaries in the eyes of the players, adding to their satisfaction when besting one. To me, that IS making the game more fun – and not just for me, but for all the participants.
March 1st, 2012 at 5:27 pm
Just read your reply – thanks!
Yeah, maybe that point got lost in the discussion.
I have read some of your other articles and they are really quite good, so I hope these posts don’t give the wrong impression Mike. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it’s kind of nice to be able to have a lively debate about something we have in common.
Keep up the nice work and thanks for the replies.
March 1st, 2012 at 7:43 pm
And I just got your reply (the one that starts “Just read your reply”). Thanks for the comments on my other articles – it’s always great when someone finds value in another person’s efforts!
I have no problem with a lively debate – up to the point at which it becomes repetitive or degenerates into name-calling. I’ve called time on a few for that reason.
FYI, as a direct result of the discussion between us, I’ve just started taking notes for a future article on House Rules…
Mike recently posted..The Wellspring Of Euonyms: Name Seeds
March 22nd, 2012 at 8:04 am
@Scott: The promised post on House Rules has just been published, click the link below to read it.
Mike recently posted..The House Always Wins: Examining the Concept of House Rules