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	<title>Comments on: Ask The GMs: When players make themselves immune, remember that &#8220;Resistance Is Futile&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Expert tips and how-to's on every aspect of creating and running exceptional campaigns.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 02:02:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Killstring</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-2047</link>
		<dc:creator>Killstring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-2047</guid>
		<description>Forgive my ignorance, but I feel there is a question going unasked here:

Is this a problem?

No, really. Is it a problem? Let&#039;s take it farther than good rolls: let&#039;s say that you have a group of individuals that flat-out cannot be hurt by magic.

GM frustrations aside, that could be a really compelling story. What happens to them, in a high-magic setting? How quickly does word spread? Is there an element of celebrity to this?

Does someone need them for some usually-lethal ritual? Good or Evil aligned, does it matter? If I&#039;m Joe Warlock, I&#039;d kill to have someone who _cannot_ be hurt by magic. I can finally finish Grand Ritual X!

And again, I concur with the sentiments above. How do you deal with someone who cannot be hurt via magic? 

Hit them with a stick. You could, if you were feeling saucy, put a nail in the stick, or something. Maybe sharpen the tip. 

But it&#039;s not necessary. 

Rather than view this as a problem for you, why not let it follow its course, and see where it takes the characters, what problems it might create for them?

Just a thought. Hope that you&#039;re having fun - AD&amp;D is a fickle mistress, but there&#039;s worlds of enjoyment to be had.

:D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive my ignorance, but I feel there is a question going unasked here:</p>
<p>Is this a problem?</p>
<p>No, really. Is it a problem? Let&#8217;s take it farther than good rolls: let&#8217;s say that you have a group of individuals that flat-out cannot be hurt by magic.</p>
<p>GM frustrations aside, that could be a really compelling story. What happens to them, in a high-magic setting? How quickly does word spread? Is there an element of celebrity to this?</p>
<p>Does someone need them for some usually-lethal ritual? Good or Evil aligned, does it matter? If I&#8217;m Joe Warlock, I&#8217;d kill to have someone who _cannot_ be hurt by magic. I can finally finish Grand Ritual X!</p>
<p>And again, I concur with the sentiments above. How do you deal with someone who cannot be hurt via magic? </p>
<p>Hit them with a stick. You could, if you were feeling saucy, put a nail in the stick, or something. Maybe sharpen the tip. </p>
<p>But it&#8217;s not necessary. </p>
<p>Rather than view this as a problem for you, why not let it follow its course, and see where it takes the characters, what problems it might create for them?</p>
<p>Just a thought. Hope that you&#8217;re having fun &#8211; AD&amp;D is a fickle mistress, but there&#8217;s worlds of enjoyment to be had.</p>
<p>:D</p>
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		<title>By: Vince</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-1222</link>
		<dc:creator>Vince</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-1222</guid>
		<description>A few things come to mind...

1. If the GM is at war with the players, something has gone horribly wrong. Figure out what that is and repair it.

2. In AD&amp;D, new spells could still be researched. &quot;Improved&quot; versions of spells that are two levels higher but no longer a saving throw might well appear if the PCs are well known heroes whose ability to resist the effects of a spell is notorious.

3. The heroes might become immune to magic, but I&#039;d bet their families, lovers, friends, and allies won&#039;t. A clever villain might make something of this.

4. Not all threats are spell-based. Villains might well protect themselves by moving their lairs or chosen arenas to nearby (or distant) planes, whose environments themselves are inimical to life, but not actually magical in themselves.

5. Be sure that this isn&#039;t just a GM&#039;s petulance at powerful players, or you may find yourself alone at that table next Saturday night. GMs have a lot of power, but all of it is at the consent of the players, who are not obligated to appear.

6. Make sure what you choose to do is actually fun for everyone involved. Fun does not mean easy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few things come to mind&#8230;</p>
<p>1. If the GM is at war with the players, something has gone horribly wrong. Figure out what that is and repair it.</p>
<p>2. In AD&amp;D, new spells could still be researched. &#8220;Improved&#8221; versions of spells that are two levels higher but no longer a saving throw might well appear if the PCs are well known heroes whose ability to resist the effects of a spell is notorious.</p>
<p>3. The heroes might become immune to magic, but I&#8217;d bet their families, lovers, friends, and allies won&#8217;t. A clever villain might make something of this.</p>
<p>4. Not all threats are spell-based. Villains might well protect themselves by moving their lairs or chosen arenas to nearby (or distant) planes, whose environments themselves are inimical to life, but not actually magical in themselves.</p>
<p>5. Be sure that this isn&#8217;t just a GM&#8217;s petulance at powerful players, or you may find yourself alone at that table next Saturday night. GMs have a lot of power, but all of it is at the consent of the players, who are not obligated to appear.</p>
<p>6. Make sure what you choose to do is actually fun for everyone involved. Fun does not mean easy.</p>
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		<title>By: Loz NEWMAN</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-1221</link>
		<dc:creator>Loz NEWMAN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-1221</guid>
		<description>Sweet! I do love a good example of turning a problem into an advantage, and that  the PCs are called on to be heroic *because* of their immunity hits the swet spot for me. My second-thought was &quot;Hmm... who *else* would also be immune, and will the PCs love or loathe needing to cooperate with them...?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sweet! I do love a good example of turning a problem into an advantage, and that  the PCs are called on to be heroic *because* of their immunity hits the swet spot for me. My second-thought was &#8220;Hmm&#8230; who *else* would also be immune, and will the PCs love or loathe needing to cooperate with them&#8230;?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Leonard Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-1220</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonard Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-1220</guid>
		<description>&lt;&gt;

Given that a DM has limitless power and an infinite array of choices to challenge his players with, I fail to see how it can possibly be &quot;too good&quot;. Just keep throwing tougher stuff at them until balance is achieved.

The important thing to remember is this: your players invested a lot into making their character&#039;s magic resistant, and so magic resistance is a defining part of their character image. Just as the player of a mighty barbarian with maxed out strength is going to expect you to put stuff in front of him to rend limb from limb, these players deserve to get a thrill out of their character&#039;s magic resistance. Throw a ton of magic at them, let them watch it bounce harmlessly off, and bask in the joy of their triumph. Once it&#039;s firmly established how tough they are, that&#039;s when you spin the &quot;armor-piercing magic&quot; plotline into your campaign.

Offer up a little foreshadowing, then wham: the world&#039;s getting invaded by an amped-up magical army whose powerful enchantments routinely burn right through magic resistance and apply huge penalties to saving throws. While all of your PCs&#039; once formidable allies are falling like wheat before the scythe, it&#039;s up to our heroes alone to fight through the hordes of darkness and cripple the power source behind them, so that the invaders can be taken down. Assuming the campaign continues from there, let them bask in their glory a while, then re-boot the nasty power source somehow and start it all over again.

&quot;Game balance&quot; in an RPG serves no real purpose but in estimating how hard you can push the PCs without breaking them, because that&#039;s what storytelling is all about: an exercise in flirting with disaster. If the basic assumptions behind your game aren&#039;t supporting that flirtation, it&#039;s time to change them. But unless you&#039;re running a horror game, do it in such a way that makes the players feel empowered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&lt;&gt;</p>
<p>Given that a DM has limitless power and an infinite array of choices to challenge his players with, I fail to see how it can possibly be &#8220;too good&#8221;. Just keep throwing tougher stuff at them until balance is achieved.</p>
<p>The important thing to remember is this: your players invested a lot into making their character&#8217;s magic resistant, and so magic resistance is a defining part of their character image. Just as the player of a mighty barbarian with maxed out strength is going to expect you to put stuff in front of him to rend limb from limb, these players deserve to get a thrill out of their character&#8217;s magic resistance. Throw a ton of magic at them, let them watch it bounce harmlessly off, and bask in the joy of their triumph. Once it&#8217;s firmly established how tough they are, that&#8217;s when you spin the &#8220;armor-piercing magic&#8221; plotline into your campaign.</p>
<p>Offer up a little foreshadowing, then wham: the world&#8217;s getting invaded by an amped-up magical army whose powerful enchantments routinely burn right through magic resistance and apply huge penalties to saving throws. While all of your PCs&#8217; once formidable allies are falling like wheat before the scythe, it&#8217;s up to our heroes alone to fight through the hordes of darkness and cripple the power source behind them, so that the invaders can be taken down. Assuming the campaign continues from there, let them bask in their glory a while, then re-boot the nasty power source somehow and start it all over again.</p>
<p>&#8220;Game balance&#8221; in an RPG serves no real purpose but in estimating how hard you can push the PCs without breaking them, because that&#8217;s what storytelling is all about: an exercise in flirting with disaster. If the basic assumptions behind your game aren&#8217;t supporting that flirtation, it&#8217;s time to change them. But unless you&#8217;re running a horror game, do it in such a way that makes the players feel empowered.</p>
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		<title>By: Juggernaut1981</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-1198</link>
		<dc:creator>Juggernaut1981</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-1198</guid>
		<description>WARNING: I have forgotten my 2E and earlier D&amp;D references...
My game environment was a &quot;convention&quot; style setting.  25+ players, 4+ GMs... big scale long story-arcs, intertwining party-adventures... all sorts of stuff.

I am a &quot;sneaky-realist&quot; GM.  If my PCs are supposed to come up against a Wizard with WHOPPING Intelligence or a Cleric with WHOPPING Wisdom they will use their strengths to get around the PCs.

Spell Casters may try the &quot;Blast them off the planet&quot; method and then the next spell will be Stone to Mud or something else... Evards Black Tentacles to entangle the spellcasters and give the fighters a hassle.  Summon Goons.  Make people have to do Balance checks. And so on and so on.  It should be a massive hassle to get to the BBEG... even when you rock up in the throne room.

Most of my PCs learned to fear the band of 8 kobolds in the small wood... because while the traps were haphazard, badly made and not fabulously dangerous... they were a pain in the ass as the kobolds kept running and sniping from amongst the trees.

NEVER be afraid to remind your players that &quot;Jim-Bob The Destroyer of Worlds has the intelligence of a shoe and will most likely be kissed after that pile of Displacer Beast poo...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WARNING: I have forgotten my 2E and earlier D&amp;D references&#8230;<br />
My game environment was a &#8220;convention&#8221; style setting.  25+ players, 4+ GMs&#8230; big scale long story-arcs, intertwining party-adventures&#8230; all sorts of stuff.</p>
<p>I am a &#8220;sneaky-realist&#8221; GM.  If my PCs are supposed to come up against a Wizard with WHOPPING Intelligence or a Cleric with WHOPPING Wisdom they will use their strengths to get around the PCs.</p>
<p>Spell Casters may try the &#8220;Blast them off the planet&#8221; method and then the next spell will be Stone to Mud or something else&#8230; Evards Black Tentacles to entangle the spellcasters and give the fighters a hassle.  Summon Goons.  Make people have to do Balance checks. And so on and so on.  It should be a massive hassle to get to the BBEG&#8230; even when you rock up in the throne room.</p>
<p>Most of my PCs learned to fear the band of 8 kobolds in the small wood&#8230; because while the traps were haphazard, badly made and not fabulously dangerous&#8230; they were a pain in the ass as the kobolds kept running and sniping from amongst the trees.</p>
<p>NEVER be afraid to remind your players that &#8220;Jim-Bob The Destroyer of Worlds has the intelligence of a shoe and will most likely be kissed after that pile of Displacer Beast poo&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Loz NEWMAN</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-1186</link>
		<dc:creator>Loz NEWMAN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-1186</guid>
		<description>Try asking your players *why* they chose such-and-such a character class.... Player-GM &quot;War&quot; is a bad path you should try hard to avoid.

Short-term:
Also if they&#039;re immune to some spells... use alchemy. Or psionics, or saving-throw-less spells. Or anything except that which they are invulnerable too. Mechanical traps. Dungeons made of jello. Tricking or controlling the PCs into fighting one another.... volontary sacrifices for the greater good (be aware some players may balk at this)

Long-term : All the above are merely *tactics*, and you should also be thinking strategically. The situation is only going to get worse as the PCs progress (and you should avoid slamming them with progression-denial tactics, as this kills player-enjoyment of just about everything). You need a long-term balancing factor. Eventually shutting down this PC team and starting over may be a more healthy alternative if you can&#039;t find one. N.B. Mikes and Johnn suggestions cover almost everything, so there&#039;s hope yet :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try asking your players *why* they chose such-and-such a character class&#8230;. Player-GM &#8220;War&#8221; is a bad path you should try hard to avoid.</p>
<p>Short-term:<br />
Also if they&#8217;re immune to some spells&#8230; use alchemy. Or psionics, or saving-throw-less spells. Or anything except that which they are invulnerable too. Mechanical traps. Dungeons made of jello. Tricking or controlling the PCs into fighting one another&#8230;. volontary sacrifices for the greater good (be aware some players may balk at this)</p>
<p>Long-term : All the above are merely *tactics*, and you should also be thinking strategically. The situation is only going to get worse as the PCs progress (and you should avoid slamming them with progression-denial tactics, as this kills player-enjoyment of just about everything). You need a long-term balancing factor. Eventually shutting down this PC team and starting over may be a more healthy alternative if you can&#8217;t find one. N.B. Mikes and Johnn suggestions cover almost everything, so there&#8217;s hope yet :)</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-1185</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-1185</guid>
		<description>Actually, James, the closest equivalent to CR is probably HD. The rule of thumb that I always used to use was Number of HD in the party should be roughly equal to the number of HD of the monsters. I converted the party&#039;s magic items to a gp value, which was defined as equivalent to xp, which in turn enabled an adjustment to the level of the characters, ie an increase in HD. I also subtracted the gp value of any magic items the enemy had available to them. It was a much simpler system than 3.x, and the results were a lot rougher. But it worked reasonably well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, James, the closest equivalent to CR is probably HD. The rule of thumb that I always used to use was Number of HD in the party should be roughly equal to the number of HD of the monsters. I converted the party&#8217;s magic items to a gp value, which was defined as equivalent to xp, which in turn enabled an adjustment to the level of the characters, ie an increase in HD. I also subtracted the gp value of any magic items the enemy had available to them. It was a much simpler system than 3.x, and the results were a lot rougher. But it worked reasonably well.</p>
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		<title>By: "James Carter"</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-1184</link>
		<dc:creator>"James Carter"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-1184</guid>
		<description>In AD&amp;D (which I used to play) does things by &quot;raw experience points,&quot; not by &quot;CR&quot; so it didn&#039;t matter whether the players were 1st level facing a great wyrm or 20th lvl. Before a certain point, it was certain suicide to attempt to face said monster, but the players still *could* try. There wasn&#039;t really an easy mechanic for leveling monsters as there is in 3.x and 4 though, so unless you made custom monsters (or just gave them character levels anyways, and increased the XP), you were stuck with whatever monsters were in the book(s).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In AD&amp;D (which I used to play) does things by &#8220;raw experience points,&#8221; not by &#8220;CR&#8221; so it didn&#8217;t matter whether the players were 1st level facing a great wyrm or 20th lvl. Before a certain point, it was certain suicide to attempt to face said monster, but the players still *could* try. There wasn&#8217;t really an easy mechanic for leveling monsters as there is in 3.x and 4 though, so unless you made custom monsters (or just gave them character levels anyways, and increased the XP), you were stuck with whatever monsters were in the book(s).</p>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/when-players-make-themselves-immune/comment-page-1/#comment-1181</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1003#comment-1181</guid>
		<description>You could just throw tons and tons of saving-throw monsters at them -- more than the normal CR would allow.  They&#039;ll resist a bunch and feel like they&#039;re getting great mileage out of their resistance, then they&#039;ll inevitably roll a 1 and the encounter will be balanced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could just throw tons and tons of saving-throw monsters at them &#8212; more than the normal CR would allow.  They&#8217;ll resist a bunch and feel like they&#8217;re getting great mileage out of their resistance, then they&#8217;ll inevitably roll a 1 and the encounter will be balanced.</p>
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