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	<title>Comments on: The Nimble Mind: Making Skills Matter in RPGs</title>
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	<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/</link>
	<description>Expert tips and how-to's on every aspect of creating and running exceptional campaigns.</description>
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		<title>By: dungeoneering</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-2427</link>
		<dc:creator>dungeoneering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-2427</guid>
		<description>[...] Website. Notify me of follow-up comments via e-mail. Powered by WordPress and plainscape theme. ...The Nimble Mind: Making Skills Matter in RPGs &#124; Campaign MasterySomeone once asked me why D&amp;D bothers to include skills at all. After all, the GM generally [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Website. Notify me of follow-up comments via e-mail. Powered by WordPress and plainscape theme. &#8230;The Nimble Mind: Making Skills Matter in RPGs | Campaign MasterySomeone once asked me why D&amp;D bothers to include skills at all. After all, the GM generally [...]</p>
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		<title>By: slacker</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-1646</link>
		<dc:creator>slacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-1646</guid>
		<description>My circle does a lot of augmented diplomacy. Typically you can make a diplomacy or a bluff check of some sort at any time, but you have to actually converse with the DM in trying to make that check. I suppose that means that things are a little heavily weighted towards people who can speak as well as roll high, but I find it infinitely more fun than just rolling the dice.

Our standard DM (not me--I find DMing really interesting but I&#039;ve never been quite as good at improvising as I need to be, I mostly get caught up in the cartography and the social stuff and forget about the little things that actually make an adventure) does a lot of this, not so much in terms of actually creating the skills but simply improvising the rolls, often basing things on int or str checks with some ad hoc modifier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My circle does a lot of augmented diplomacy. Typically you can make a diplomacy or a bluff check of some sort at any time, but you have to actually converse with the DM in trying to make that check. I suppose that means that things are a little heavily weighted towards people who can speak as well as roll high, but I find it infinitely more fun than just rolling the dice.</p>
<p>Our standard DM (not me&#8211;I find DMing really interesting but I&#8217;ve never been quite as good at improvising as I need to be, I mostly get caught up in the cartography and the social stuff and forget about the little things that actually make an adventure) does a lot of this, not so much in terms of actually creating the skills but simply improvising the rolls, often basing things on int or str checks with some ad hoc modifier.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-1063</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-1063</guid>
		<description>Sounds like we&#039;re birds of a feather, at least on this issue, p0ntus. You&#039;re welcome to stop by and try out my table anytime you move to Sydney!

I want to pick up on a point you make in your last paragraph:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Sometimes I like to throw in a check, opposed if applicable, to see if the player can determine the amount of truth, exaggeration or manipulation they are getting from an NPC...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I will usually throw in some hint of this (or even an outright statement) if the NPC fails his attempt. It depends on how badly he fails, really, and how blatant he&#039;s being about it. And I assume that if a PC fails a bluff/intimidate/whatever check, that the attempted target might also cotton on, and react accordingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like we&#8217;re birds of a feather, at least on this issue, p0ntus. You&#8217;re welcome to stop by and try out my table anytime you move to Sydney!</p>
<p>I want to pick up on a point you make in your last paragraph:</p>
<blockquote><p>Sometimes I like to throw in a check, opposed if applicable, to see if the player can determine the amount of truth, exaggeration or manipulation they are getting from an NPC&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>I will usually throw in some hint of this (or even an outright statement) if the NPC fails his attempt. It depends on how badly he fails, really, and how blatant he&#8217;s being about it. And I assume that if a PC fails a bluff/intimidate/whatever check, that the attempted target might also cotton on, and react accordingly.</p>
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		<title>By: p0ntus</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-1062</link>
		<dc:creator>p0ntus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-1062</guid>
		<description>I would love to play at your table.  I have played games in which the players stopped bringing their sheets, since the game was entirely reliant on acting; not a bad thing necessarily, but not the best option either.  I&#039;ve also played a game that may as well have been on my computer; all stats and objective info, no real interesting play aspect at all.  However, a game in which the GM will give you possibly questionable information based on what your character may or may not know or remember... that&#039;s just right.  

In many situations, I like to see players (when I have them) determine on their own what skill checks they intend to make, and if they pick the wrong ones, or only some of the right ones, penalties apply, particularly relating to knowledge and sensory skills.  For instance, if I decide that a given bit of info might be garnered from a guard with a lie/bluff, then a good intimidation or bribe might get half the information or slight misinformation if I&#039;m thinking quick enough.  

Sometimes I like to throw in a check, opposed if applicable, to see if the player can determine the amount of truth, exaggeration or manipulation they are getting from an NPC, or the amount of confidence they might have in their own skill before attempting a certain task.  And that check can be modified by recent successes or failures or pertinent information the character might already have.  For instance, in the case of pachristian&#039;s waterfall, I&#039;d probably tell the player that it looks &quot;not so tough&quot; or something similar, since he did a bit of climbing and jumping earlier at lower DCs (better light, dryer surface, fewer injuries, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would love to play at your table.  I have played games in which the players stopped bringing their sheets, since the game was entirely reliant on acting; not a bad thing necessarily, but not the best option either.  I&#8217;ve also played a game that may as well have been on my computer; all stats and objective info, no real interesting play aspect at all.  However, a game in which the GM will give you possibly questionable information based on what your character may or may not know or remember&#8230; that&#8217;s just right.  </p>
<p>In many situations, I like to see players (when I have them) determine on their own what skill checks they intend to make, and if they pick the wrong ones, or only some of the right ones, penalties apply, particularly relating to knowledge and sensory skills.  For instance, if I decide that a given bit of info might be garnered from a guard with a lie/bluff, then a good intimidation or bribe might get half the information or slight misinformation if I&#8217;m thinking quick enough.  </p>
<p>Sometimes I like to throw in a check, opposed if applicable, to see if the player can determine the amount of truth, exaggeration or manipulation they are getting from an NPC, or the amount of confidence they might have in their own skill before attempting a certain task.  And that check can be modified by recent successes or failures or pertinent information the character might already have.  For instance, in the case of pachristian&#8217;s waterfall, I&#8217;d probably tell the player that it looks &#8220;not so tough&#8221; or something similar, since he did a bit of climbing and jumping earlier at lower DCs (better light, dryer surface, fewer injuries, etc.).</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-960</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 01:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-960</guid>
		<description>Pachristian, I &lt;em&gt;applaud&lt;/em&gt; using skills creatively to solve obstacles. It&#039;s when skill rolling becomes a substitute for roleplaying that things get tiresome, for example &quot;I want to bribe the Watchman to let me know if anyone asks about the missing wagon. I rolled 22 on my bribery skill.&quot;

Your suggestion is excellent, and exactly the sort of thing that the blog was intended to suggest - provided that the GM doesn&#039;t simply announce (in the case of your first example), &lt;em&gt;&quot;There&#039;s a strange symbol on the wall. Make a knowledge (arcane) roll to analyze it.&quot;&lt;/em&gt; The first part of the announcement is fine, the second part should be left to the players to work out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pachristian, I <em>applaud</em> using skills creatively to solve obstacles. It&#8217;s when skill rolling becomes a substitute for roleplaying that things get tiresome, for example &#8220;I want to bribe the Watchman to let me know if anyone asks about the missing wagon. I rolled 22 on my bribery skill.&#8221;</p>
<p>Your suggestion is excellent, and exactly the sort of thing that the blog was intended to suggest &#8211; provided that the GM doesn&#8217;t simply announce (in the case of your first example), <em>&#8220;There&#8217;s a strange symbol on the wall. Make a knowledge (arcane) roll to analyze it.&#8221;</em> The first part of the announcement is fine, the second part should be left to the players to work out.</p>
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		<title>By: pachristian</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-954</link>
		<dc:creator>pachristian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-954</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t underestimate the value of players using skills for problem solving. At one Con, I had a player use Engineering and Dungeoneering skills creatively to resolve obstacles (such as a rickity bridge) and several traps (pit and squisher type).

I often use &quot;Obstacles&quot; in my games. A bit of backtracking.
Trap resolution in D&amp;D 3/3.5 is a series of skill checks: Usually Search (to find the trap) and Disable Device (to disarm the trap). The DC is set by the challenge of the trap. If the rogue fails to disarm the trap, there are consequences - usually somebody takes damage.

For an obstacle, simply replace the skills needed, retain &quot;consequences&quot;. 

Example 1:
An arcane glylph blocking a stairway requires Knowledge (Arcane) to analyze and Spellcraft to &#039;disarm&#039;. DC for both rolls is 22. If the magician fails the second roll, the glyph explodes like a weak fireball (4d6 damage, effectively a L2 spell). In short, this is a trap to be disarmed by the party magician, not the rogue. CR = 2

Example 2:
A cave has a 20&#039; high waterfall, splashing onto jagged rocks (3d6 damage to fall...). If somebody climps to the top, and then jumps over to a nearby ledge, they can tie off a rope, or rope ladder, for the rest of the party. Skills required: Climb (DC 20), and Jump (DC 20). Failure means a fall onto rocks for 3d6 damage. Game effect, a CR = 1 (maybe 2) &quot;trap&quot; that the fighter can resolve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t underestimate the value of players using skills for problem solving. At one Con, I had a player use Engineering and Dungeoneering skills creatively to resolve obstacles (such as a rickity bridge) and several traps (pit and squisher type).</p>
<p>I often use &#8220;Obstacles&#8221; in my games. A bit of backtracking.<br />
Trap resolution in D&amp;D 3/3.5 is a series of skill checks: Usually Search (to find the trap) and Disable Device (to disarm the trap). The DC is set by the challenge of the trap. If the rogue fails to disarm the trap, there are consequences &#8211; usually somebody takes damage.</p>
<p>For an obstacle, simply replace the skills needed, retain &#8220;consequences&#8221;. </p>
<p>Example 1:<br />
An arcane glylph blocking a stairway requires Knowledge (Arcane) to analyze and Spellcraft to &#8216;disarm&#8217;. DC for both rolls is 22. If the magician fails the second roll, the glyph explodes like a weak fireball (4d6 damage, effectively a L2 spell). In short, this is a trap to be disarmed by the party magician, not the rogue. CR = 2</p>
<p>Example 2:<br />
A cave has a 20&#8242; high waterfall, splashing onto jagged rocks (3d6 damage to fall&#8230;). If somebody climps to the top, and then jumps over to a nearby ledge, they can tie off a rope, or rope ladder, for the rest of the party. Skills required: Climb (DC 20), and Jump (DC 20). Failure means a fall onto rocks for 3d6 damage. Game effect, a CR = 1 (maybe 2) &#8220;trap&#8221; that the fighter can resolve.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-932</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-932</guid>
		<description>@ Noumenon: Yeah, nothing distresses a player more than being told, &quot;Make a skill roll (save roll, whatever) and keep doing it until you fail against DC whatever - tell me how many rolls it takes&quot;. There&#039;s an immediate sinking feeling - no pun intended.

It should have been added that when you have no more forward swimming speed to sacrifice, that&#039;s when the drowning starts - or being swept towards rocks by the current, or whatever...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Noumenon: Yeah, nothing distresses a player more than being told, &#8220;Make a skill roll (save roll, whatever) and keep doing it until you fail against DC whatever &#8211; tell me how many rolls it takes&#8221;. There&#8217;s an immediate sinking feeling &#8211; no pun intended.</p>
<p>It should have been added that when you have no more forward swimming speed to sacrifice, that&#8217;s when the drowning starts &#8211; or being swept towards rocks by the current, or whatever&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-931</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-931</guid>
		<description>I more or less agree, Joseph. But rather than &#039;no penalty for failure&#039;, I would argue that the criterion should be &#039;no irrevocable penalty for failure&#039;.

In fact, the notion of &quot;taking 20&quot; and getting a result in a fixed amount of time irks me so much that in some of my campaigns the whole thing has been removed and replaced with a system of getting an &#039;extra time required&#039; value based on the margin of success or failure. If you know the DC and the character&#039;s skill total and die roll, determining how much time to spend to achieve a 20 (ie best success) is easy - but if you&#039;re ignorant of one of those, you just have to spend as much time on the task as you think it warrants and live with the results. But it&#039;s (unfortunately) a little fiddly in play, taking extra GM time as well, so I&#039;ve never been completely happy with that solution, either - which is why I didn&#039;t detail it in the blog post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I more or less agree, Joseph. But rather than &#8216;no penalty for failure&#8217;, I would argue that the criterion should be &#8216;no irrevocable penalty for failure&#8217;.</p>
<p>In fact, the notion of &#8220;taking 20&#8243; and getting a result in a fixed amount of time irks me so much that in some of my campaigns the whole thing has been removed and replaced with a system of getting an &#8216;extra time required&#8217; value based on the margin of success or failure. If you know the DC and the character&#8217;s skill total and die roll, determining how much time to spend to achieve a 20 (ie best success) is easy &#8211; but if you&#8217;re ignorant of one of those, you just have to spend as much time on the task as you think it warrants and live with the results. But it&#8217;s (unfortunately) a little fiddly in play, taking extra GM time as well, so I&#8217;ve never been completely happy with that solution, either &#8211; which is why I didn&#8217;t detail it in the blog post.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-930</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-930</guid>
		<description>I liked this article, and I agree completely. One important point that I feel *requires* mentioning is that you guys seem to be using the Take 20 option too liberally. You can&#039;t *always* take 20 as whomever this was pointed out: you can only take 20 when there is no penalty for failure. It is trying over and over until you get it right. It&#039;s great for crafting (measure twice, cut once) or searching, or picking a lock without a trap on it. Not so good for a lot of the other skills. Case in point: knowledge skills. A person can&#039;t think and think and think to see if they know something. They know it or they don&#039;t. One roll: take it or leave it.

There&#039;s another thing: time. Taking 20 takes time -- enough time to try everything and decide what works best. Not so good with situations where you are in any kind of hurry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked this article, and I agree completely. One important point that I feel *requires* mentioning is that you guys seem to be using the Take 20 option too liberally. You can&#8217;t *always* take 20 as whomever this was pointed out: you can only take 20 when there is no penalty for failure. It is trying over and over until you get it right. It&#8217;s great for crafting (measure twice, cut once) or searching, or picking a lock without a trap on it. Not so good for a lot of the other skills. Case in point: knowledge skills. A person can&#8217;t think and think and think to see if they know something. They know it or they don&#8217;t. One roll: take it or leave it.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s another thing: time. Taking 20 takes time &#8212; enough time to try everything and decide what works best. Not so good with situations where you are in any kind of hurry.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-nimble-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-929</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 05:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=849#comment-929</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;An endurance swim, on the other hand, is about going as slow as necessary in order to cover the distance – the goal is to stay afloat at any price. Applying the normal rules for swimming but permitting the character to lose forward speed for the rest of the swim instead of damage from drowning does a reasonable job of simulating the required task.&lt;/i&gt;

I really, really like that.  So many tasks are just impossible in D&amp;D because you&#039;re gonna roll a 1 eventually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>An endurance swim, on the other hand, is about going as slow as necessary in order to cover the distance – the goal is to stay afloat at any price. Applying the normal rules for swimming but permitting the character to lose forward speed for the rest of the swim instead of damage from drowning does a reasonable job of simulating the required task.</i></p>
<p>I really, really like that.  So many tasks are just impossible in D&amp;D because you&#8217;re gonna roll a 1 eventually.</p>
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