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	<title>Comments on: The Cypher Gate</title>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-cypher-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-1480</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1305#comment-1480</guid>
		<description>To clarify point 2: I was looking for a way to bridge the conceptual gap between the theory of the powers of Greater Darkness being mortal within the game setting and having previously enjoyed full divine status.

This implies some sort of change or transformation, and it seems unlikely that it would have been undertaken willingly. So I thought about someone using the gate to seperate out the differences between the two statuses, producing (effectively) two seperate beings where once there was one. Both are incomplete, and would be vulnerable as a result.

This then raised the question, if what is running around is the mortal part, what happened to the rest? Is it still also on the loose?

The idea of the current crop of gods using that power to raise themselves from high-powered mortals to divine status followed from that question, and tied the motive for the overthrow of the former Gods, who now linger as Demon Princes, etc, plotting and scheming to get their power back and &#039;do unto others as they have done to you&#039; with extreme prejudice.

It seems likely that the reason the idea still seems cobbled together is because this is all foundation and background; you would still have to assess the implications for the modern campaign elements (the holy orders etc), who knows what, and what impact it would have on the various elements of mundane society. The ramifications apon the actual game world have yet to be determined, in other words; this is all behind-the-curtains metaplot.

There are a few implications to ponder, as well. Unless the previous deities were inherantly evil (which would show up in folklore and myth), the current gods inherantly corrupted themselves somewhat by casting down the old gods and taking their place - as I said, unless their divine forebears were inherantly and unspeakably evil, this would have to be considered a corrupt act.

There&#039;s a quote that comes to mind, but I&#039;m not sure where it originates (I think it may have been Numb3rs): &quot;Corruption of the best is the worst&quot;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To clarify point 2: I was looking for a way to bridge the conceptual gap between the theory of the powers of Greater Darkness being mortal within the game setting and having previously enjoyed full divine status.</p>
<p>This implies some sort of change or transformation, and it seems unlikely that it would have been undertaken willingly. So I thought about someone using the gate to seperate out the differences between the two statuses, producing (effectively) two seperate beings where once there was one. Both are incomplete, and would be vulnerable as a result.</p>
<p>This then raised the question, if what is running around is the mortal part, what happened to the rest? Is it still also on the loose?</p>
<p>The idea of the current crop of gods using that power to raise themselves from high-powered mortals to divine status followed from that question, and tied the motive for the overthrow of the former Gods, who now linger as Demon Princes, etc, plotting and scheming to get their power back and &#8216;do unto others as they have done to you&#8217; with extreme prejudice.</p>
<p>It seems likely that the reason the idea still seems cobbled together is because this is all foundation and background; you would still have to assess the implications for the modern campaign elements (the holy orders etc), who knows what, and what impact it would have on the various elements of mundane society. The ramifications apon the actual game world have yet to be determined, in other words; this is all behind-the-curtains metaplot.</p>
<p>There are a few implications to ponder, as well. Unless the previous deities were inherantly evil (which would show up in folklore and myth), the current gods inherantly corrupted themselves somewhat by casting down the old gods and taking their place &#8211; as I said, unless their divine forebears were inherantly and unspeakably evil, this would have to be considered a corrupt act.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a quote that comes to mind, but I&#8217;m not sure where it originates (I think it may have been Numb3rs): &#8220;Corruption of the best is the worst&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Johnn</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-cypher-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-1477</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 00:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1305#comment-1477</guid>
		<description>I like this line of thinking. I&#039;m not sure exactly what (2) means though. Could you explain your ideas more?

I like the devil/demons are former (rival) pantheons, warped and twisted. Perhaps the Cypher Gate has something to do with their past fallout and downfall, which is why the Arch Devils and Demon Princes continue to besiege the area.

Maybe the twisted memories or lore of a few of the Arch Devils and Demon Princes tells of the Cypher Gate in Riddleport being their salvation. To them, it&#039;s interpreted as ultimate power, but in reality it will turn them back to their true Divine form. There should be a cost associated with this, but I&#039;m not sure what.

Some of this still seems a bit cobbled together. I hate it when my plots feel like they&#039;ve been forced to just tie up a few inconsistencies. More ideas and input is welcome!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like this line of thinking. I&#8217;m not sure exactly what (2) means though. Could you explain your ideas more?</p>
<p>I like the devil/demons are former (rival) pantheons, warped and twisted. Perhaps the Cypher Gate has something to do with their past fallout and downfall, which is why the Arch Devils and Demon Princes continue to besiege the area.</p>
<p>Maybe the twisted memories or lore of a few of the Arch Devils and Demon Princes tells of the Cypher Gate in Riddleport being their salvation. To them, it&#8217;s interpreted as ultimate power, but in reality it will turn them back to their true Divine form. There should be a cost associated with this, but I&#8217;m not sure what.</p>
<p>Some of this still seems a bit cobbled together. I hate it when my plots feel like they&#8217;ve been forced to just tie up a few inconsistencies. More ideas and input is welcome!</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-cypher-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-1473</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:47:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1305#comment-1473</guid>
		<description>Johnn Wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
“where do devils and demons fit into the cosmology that you’ve constructed?”

I’m using Planescape. So they’re critters like everything else, including humans. That does pose a problem though, as I want some demon lords and arch devils involved as factions in Riddleport, but they wouldn’t be Ascended tuned to the Riddleport gate according to my rules, as their home planes would be elsewhere. Shoot. A wrench.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
and then later, wrote,
&lt;blockquote&gt;
A thought. What are my motives for involving named critters, such as Lloth, Asmodeus, Tiamat and others? Nostalgia, for the most part.

Perhaps I’ll reskin these monsters and create Ascended who are native to Golarion, and make original personalities and whatnot for them.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

These grive rise to another couple of possibilities for you to consider.

1. Perhaps the &quot;stock standard&quot; Demons and Devils are different in nature, ie Mortal and not Divine, as would be expected from the Planescape setting, but the Demon Princes, Llolth, Tiamat, etc, are entirely seperate in origins. You &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; have your cake and eat it too.

2. Perhaps the Demon Princes et al were once Ascended Beings like the Gods who have had their natures divided into Mortal and Demi-mortal/supernatural componants - with their memories fragmented enough so that they only dimly percieve what they have lost. This would explain the &#039;family fued&#039; that these beings have going with the Gods in a way that ties inherantly back into this particular campaign.

3. It&#039;s even possible, if (2) is correct, that the beings known as Demon Princes etc are the remains of a prior Pantheon that the current pantheon has displaced - violently. They might even have been a fairly normal bunch of good guys and bad guys and those in-between. Perhaps the gods have even absorbed/appropriated the non-mortal componants of the former pantheon, and the mortal componants of the former pantheon attack the Gods in perpetual attempts to regain what was once theirs and reclaim their place as the Divine Beings of the cosmos. Of course, the experiences they&#039;ve been through would unhinge even the strongest minds, and the things they&#039;ve had to do in order to survive would corrupt the noblest soul - so their success would definitly not be in the best interests of the mortals who lived to see it.

All of these serve to broaden the moral and philosophical essence of the religious groups (of course, I would assume that only the highest-ranking would have access to the truth, and might even be bound to commit ritual suicide before they divulge it). They also give the religious orders so much to keep a handle on that not only would &#039;little things&#039; fall through the cracks all the time (giving adventurers something to do), but that they wouldn&#039;t have the resources to maintain control over even something as important as the Cyphergate - the best that they could do would be to maintain a state of political anarchy and maintain a popular delusion that the gate was Arcane in nature.

That would make the entire political structure of Riddleport, and the head of the Arcane Guild that&#039;s studying the gate, unwitting pawns of the religious orders - or, more properly, the shadowy back-room elements within the religious orders. Religious fanatics are always worth dropping into a campaign....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johnn Wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>
“where do devils and demons fit into the cosmology that you’ve constructed?”</p>
<p>I’m using Planescape. So they’re critters like everything else, including humans. That does pose a problem though, as I want some demon lords and arch devils involved as factions in Riddleport, but they wouldn’t be Ascended tuned to the Riddleport gate according to my rules, as their home planes would be elsewhere. Shoot. A wrench.
</p></blockquote>
<p>and then later, wrote,</p>
<blockquote><p>
A thought. What are my motives for involving named critters, such as Lloth, Asmodeus, Tiamat and others? Nostalgia, for the most part.</p>
<p>Perhaps I’ll reskin these monsters and create Ascended who are native to Golarion, and make original personalities and whatnot for them.
</p></blockquote>
<p>These grive rise to another couple of possibilities for you to consider.</p>
<p>1. Perhaps the &#8220;stock standard&#8221; Demons and Devils are different in nature, ie Mortal and not Divine, as would be expected from the Planescape setting, but the Demon Princes, Llolth, Tiamat, etc, are entirely seperate in origins. You <em>can</em> have your cake and eat it too.</p>
<p>2. Perhaps the Demon Princes et al were once Ascended Beings like the Gods who have had their natures divided into Mortal and Demi-mortal/supernatural componants &#8211; with their memories fragmented enough so that they only dimly percieve what they have lost. This would explain the &#8216;family fued&#8217; that these beings have going with the Gods in a way that ties inherantly back into this particular campaign.</p>
<p>3. It&#8217;s even possible, if (2) is correct, that the beings known as Demon Princes etc are the remains of a prior Pantheon that the current pantheon has displaced &#8211; violently. They might even have been a fairly normal bunch of good guys and bad guys and those in-between. Perhaps the gods have even absorbed/appropriated the non-mortal componants of the former pantheon, and the mortal componants of the former pantheon attack the Gods in perpetual attempts to regain what was once theirs and reclaim their place as the Divine Beings of the cosmos. Of course, the experiences they&#8217;ve been through would unhinge even the strongest minds, and the things they&#8217;ve had to do in order to survive would corrupt the noblest soul &#8211; so their success would definitly not be in the best interests of the mortals who lived to see it.</p>
<p>All of these serve to broaden the moral and philosophical essence of the religious groups (of course, I would assume that only the highest-ranking would have access to the truth, and might even be bound to commit ritual suicide before they divulge it). They also give the religious orders so much to keep a handle on that not only would &#8216;little things&#8217; fall through the cracks all the time (giving adventurers something to do), but that they wouldn&#8217;t have the resources to maintain control over even something as important as the Cyphergate &#8211; the best that they could do would be to maintain a state of political anarchy and maintain a popular delusion that the gate was Arcane in nature.</p>
<p>That would make the entire political structure of Riddleport, and the head of the Arcane Guild that&#8217;s studying the gate, unwitting pawns of the religious orders &#8211; or, more properly, the shadowy back-room elements within the religious orders. Religious fanatics are always worth dropping into a campaign&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Johnn</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-cypher-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-1469</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 21:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1305#comment-1469</guid>
		<description>A thought. What are my motives for involving named critters, such as Lloth, Asmodeus, Tiamat and others? Nostalgia, for the most part.

Perhaps I&#039;ll reskin these monsters and create Ascended who are native to Golarion, and make original personalities and whatnot for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A thought. What are my motives for involving named critters, such as Lloth, Asmodeus, Tiamat and others? Nostalgia, for the most part.</p>
<p>Perhaps I&#8217;ll reskin these monsters and create Ascended who are native to Golarion, and make original personalities and whatnot for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Johnn</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-cypher-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-1468</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 21:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1305#comment-1468</guid>
		<description>&quot;Or maybe it&#039;s round but partially on a multidimensional axis and hence the part of it that&#039;s in the prime material plane seems to be elliptical, as though it were being viewed at an angle.&quot;

That strikes an idea. What if all the gates also extend to another, single place, such that they all stack and form a sphere? That implies a fixed amount of gates and planes. I wonder what the sphere does, or what happens inside? Perhaps the sphere is the universe in some kind of paradoxical way.


&quot;where do devils and demons fit into the cosmology that you’ve constructed?&quot;

I&#039;m using Planescape. So they&#039;re critters like everything else, including humans. That does pose a problem though, as I want some demon lords and arch devils involved as factions in Riddleport, but they wouldn&#039;t be Ascended tuned to the Riddleport gate according to my rules, as their home planes would be elsewhere. Shoot. A wrench.


&quot;Perhaps one or two of the more enlightened religious orders have discerned or learned of the true nature of the gate&quot;

Nice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Or maybe it&#8217;s round but partially on a multidimensional axis and hence the part of it that&#8217;s in the prime material plane seems to be elliptical, as though it were being viewed at an angle.&#8221;</p>
<p>That strikes an idea. What if all the gates also extend to another, single place, such that they all stack and form a sphere? That implies a fixed amount of gates and planes. I wonder what the sphere does, or what happens inside? Perhaps the sphere is the universe in some kind of paradoxical way.</p>
<p>&#8220;where do devils and demons fit into the cosmology that you’ve constructed?&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m using Planescape. So they&#8217;re critters like everything else, including humans. That does pose a problem though, as I want some demon lords and arch devils involved as factions in Riddleport, but they wouldn&#8217;t be Ascended tuned to the Riddleport gate according to my rules, as their home planes would be elsewhere. Shoot. A wrench.</p>
<p>&#8220;Perhaps one or two of the more enlightened religious orders have discerned or learned of the true nature of the gate&#8221;</p>
<p>Nice.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-cypher-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-1467</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1305#comment-1467</guid>
		<description>A couple of thoughts. First, regarding the size of the gate: relativity states that the more energy something has, the more it distorts space around it. So perhaps the gate has a similar effect, being smaller (when measured) when a divine being is actually using the power of the gate. Or maybe it&#039;s elliptical. Or maybe it&#039;s round but partially on a multidimensional axis and hence the part of it that&#039;s in the prime material plane seems to be elliptical, as though it were being viewed at an angle. The latter would definitly attract attention to it - and the inability to ever look at it square-on no matter what angle it is viewed from would never suggest that it was hiding something, would it?

Second, about the divine nature of the gate itself. Perhaps one or two of the more enlightened religious orders have discerned or learned of the true nature of the gate and secretly but actively encourage the arcane misconception of it to deflect attention away from the vulnerability of the Gods. If anyone seems to be actually striking too close to the truth, they might take steps to first discredit them and then arrange an &#039;unfortunate accident&#039;.

Thirdly, where do devils and demons fit into the cosmology that you&#039;ve constructed? Do they have symbols on the gate, or do they have their own gate somewhere else, or do they simply have neither the vulnerabilities nor advantages of the gate? The answers could have a big impact - on their capabilities, on their tactics, on their goals, and on the approach of the Churches to them. Perhaps they do have symbols on the gate, in the same space as that of the gods, or on the back side of the gate, but these are only viewable in a certain light or under certain conditions. Or perhaps, if they have their own gate and one or more Churches know it, they have deliberately chosen not to exploit it (or even go looking for it), choosing the security of the Gods over exploiting the vulnerabilities of their enemies - something that many would consider a self-serving betrayal of everything the churches are &lt;em&gt;supposed&lt;/em&gt; to stand for...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of thoughts. First, regarding the size of the gate: relativity states that the more energy something has, the more it distorts space around it. So perhaps the gate has a similar effect, being smaller (when measured) when a divine being is actually using the power of the gate. Or maybe it&#8217;s elliptical. Or maybe it&#8217;s round but partially on a multidimensional axis and hence the part of it that&#8217;s in the prime material plane seems to be elliptical, as though it were being viewed at an angle. The latter would definitly attract attention to it &#8211; and the inability to ever look at it square-on no matter what angle it is viewed from would never suggest that it was hiding something, would it?</p>
<p>Second, about the divine nature of the gate itself. Perhaps one or two of the more enlightened religious orders have discerned or learned of the true nature of the gate and secretly but actively encourage the arcane misconception of it to deflect attention away from the vulnerability of the Gods. If anyone seems to be actually striking too close to the truth, they might take steps to first discredit them and then arrange an &#8216;unfortunate accident&#8217;.</p>
<p>Thirdly, where do devils and demons fit into the cosmology that you&#8217;ve constructed? Do they have symbols on the gate, or do they have their own gate somewhere else, or do they simply have neither the vulnerabilities nor advantages of the gate? The answers could have a big impact &#8211; on their capabilities, on their tactics, on their goals, and on the approach of the Churches to them. Perhaps they do have symbols on the gate, in the same space as that of the gods, or on the back side of the gate, but these are only viewable in a certain light or under certain conditions. Or perhaps, if they have their own gate and one or more Churches know it, they have deliberately chosen not to exploit it (or even go looking for it), choosing the security of the Gods over exploiting the vulnerabilities of their enemies &#8211; something that many would consider a self-serving betrayal of everything the churches are <em>supposed</em> to stand for&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Johnn</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-cypher-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-1463</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1305#comment-1463</guid>
		<description>Nice one. Let me noodle on that. Either I fix the arch, or it remains as-is and that is part of its strangeness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice one. Let me noodle on that. Either I fix the arch, or it remains as-is and that is part of its strangeness.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-cypher-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-1462</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 13:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=1305#comment-1462</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Measurements reveal the arch is twelve cubits tall at both ends, which appear to be buried miles deep into the bedrock of the world itself, and 8 cubits tall at the peak.&lt;/i&gt;

Arches are taller in the middle, right?  And &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/search?q=8%20cubits%20in%20feet&amp;start=0&amp;ie=utf-8&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;client=firefox-a&amp;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&quot;&gt;8 cubits = 12 feet&lt;/a&gt; in the Googleverse.  Sorry to nitpick, nothing productive to add.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Measurements reveal the arch is twelve cubits tall at both ends, which appear to be buried miles deep into the bedrock of the world itself, and 8 cubits tall at the peak.</i></p>
<p>Arches are taller in the middle, right?  And <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=8%20cubits%20in%20feet&amp;start=0&amp;ie=utf-8&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;client=firefox-a&amp;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official">8 cubits = 12 feet</a> in the Googleverse.  Sorry to nitpick, nothing productive to add.</p>
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