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	<title>Comments on: Moral Qualms on the Richter scale &#8211; the need for cooperative subject limits</title>
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	<description>Expert tips and how-to&#039;s on every aspect of creating and running exceptional campaigns.</description>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-911</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 05:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-911</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it matters too much what a player&#039;s private opinions are if they keep them to themselves, accept that the game is a fictional setting and that the characters they will interact with are fictional characters that may have different moral and ethical standards. Clearly, in the cases you cite, the players in question had problems doing so (though at least one made the attempt), and that is where I perceive the heart of the problem to lie. The circumstances would have been very different if the players in question knew they had the prejudices in question and knew that they were unreasonable and were trying to change their attitudes, to bring the subject of the conversation back to the situation described in the blog post.

Challenging your prejudices is an attempt to make yourself a better person, something that I consider laudable and to be encouraged and supported.

I agree completely with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. Well said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it matters too much what a player&#8217;s private opinions are if they keep them to themselves, accept that the game is a fictional setting and that the characters they will interact with are fictional characters that may have different moral and ethical standards. Clearly, in the cases you cite, the players in question had problems doing so (though at least one made the attempt), and that is where I perceive the heart of the problem to lie. The circumstances would have been very different if the players in question knew they had the prejudices in question and knew that they were unreasonable and were trying to change their attitudes, to bring the subject of the conversation back to the situation described in the blog post.</p>
<p>Challenging your prejudices is an attempt to make yourself a better person, something that I consider laudable and to be encouraged and supported.</p>
<p>I agree completely with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. Well said.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-910</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-910</guid>
		<description>Actually, Mike, it was also that the players held such prejudices.  They were not merely projecting them onto the campaign -- they were poisoning the communal space of the players themselves with their petty bigotries.  Call me unreasonable if you want, but I really have no interest in being in the same room as anyone with those kinds of unflinching prejudices.  I have no problem with ousting such people from any games I run, parties I host, or any other private event.

Now, if I have to be around someone like that at a public event,  such as a tournament game session I&#039;m running, I will grit my teeth and deal with it -- it&#039;s not my place to oust such people in those situations.  However, even then, I refuse to accommodate such prejudices in my game-mastering.

Too many people want to play heroes in their RPGs but refuse to stand up for what&#039;s right in real life.  I can not honestly claim I am not a bigot if I make my gaming group into a sanctuary for bigots to openly enjoy their bigotry without consequence or rebuttal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Mike, it was also that the players held such prejudices.  They were not merely projecting them onto the campaign &#8212; they were poisoning the communal space of the players themselves with their petty bigotries.  Call me unreasonable if you want, but I really have no interest in being in the same room as anyone with those kinds of unflinching prejudices.  I have no problem with ousting such people from any games I run, parties I host, or any other private event.</p>
<p>Now, if I have to be around someone like that at a public event,  such as a tournament game session I&#8217;m running, I will grit my teeth and deal with it &#8212; it&#8217;s not my place to oust such people in those situations.  However, even then, I refuse to accommodate such prejudices in my game-mastering.</p>
<p>Too many people want to play heroes in their RPGs but refuse to stand up for what&#8217;s right in real life.  I can not honestly claim I am not a bigot if I make my gaming group into a sanctuary for bigots to openly enjoy their bigotry without consequence or rebuttal.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-909</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-909</guid>
		<description>Excellant points, Matt, and I agree with your assessment of those situations, and the way they were handled, completely. Which only really shows how complex these issues are. The problems that were insuperable in the cases you cite is not that the players held those prejudices, but that they projected them onto their characters and the campaign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellant points, Matt, and I agree with your assessment of those situations, and the way they were handled, completely. Which only really shows how complex these issues are. The problems that were insuperable in the cases you cite is not that the players held those prejudices, but that they projected them onto their characters and the campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 02:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-907</guid>
		<description>While I agree with your thoughts overall, at the same time, I think the reverse is sometimes true: sometimes, a person should be willing to drive a player off over a topic that player considers taboo.

I think I can better explain what I mean through two examples.

Example Firstus: It was a new group&#039;s first game, a spy campaign, and we were playing out the PCs&#039; first introduction to each other.  One of the players was playing an African-American tech expert.  When she described her PC&#039;s appearance, one of the players blurted out, &quot;Why are you playing a -- &quot; and then he used a racist term for an African-American.  We all took a deep breath and asked him very politely, &quot;Is that your character saying that?&quot;  He looked confused and told us, &quot;No.  But she&#039;s White; why&#039;s she gotta be playing a -- &quot; and then he used that racist term again.  At that point, I informed him coldly that such terms were not going to be used in my home, not unless a PC or NPC used them for characterization and maybe not even then.  His only response was to ask me whether he had to expect any Black NPCs among the good guys in the game.  Yes, he did, and I tried to be courteous and positive when I told him in effect that I refused to excise all Black PCs and NPCs from my campaign merely to make him comfortable in his racism.  He apologized to the player of the African-American tech expert, refused to look at her for the rest of the game, and twitched a lot.  None of us were upset when he decided not to show up for the next gaming session.

Example Secondus: This time, the new player was the roommate of another player.  His first game, he discovered that two male PCs were lovers.  He stopped the play by complaining that he didn&#039;t come to a game to see &quot;sick things like that&quot;.  While the player who&#039;d brought him flushed red with embarrassment, we informed the new player that the two male players playing the gay PCs were lovers in real life.  We also pointed out that another male player was bisexual and one of the two women players was a lesbian.  He stared at us like we were Deep Ones at Innsmouth, then demanded we admit we were just making this up to tease him.  He said to us, &quot;I thought this was a Christian game.&quot;  Well, games have no religion, we pointed out, but most of us attended the same Christian church -- a gay-friendly Christian church.  &quot;I don&#039;t mind playing with you as long as they play normal people not gay people,&quot; he said.  At that point, we thanked him for his time and suggested he game elsewhere.

I agree with you that we should be considerate about other people&#039;s beliefs and creeds.  The purpose of an RPG is fun, not enlightenment and not a civics lesson.

However, there are times when we should draw that line in the sand and say, &quot;No, I will not accommodate you in your racism or your homophobia or your hatreds.&quot;  There aren&#039;t many, but they are there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with your thoughts overall, at the same time, I think the reverse is sometimes true: sometimes, a person should be willing to drive a player off over a topic that player considers taboo.</p>
<p>I think I can better explain what I mean through two examples.</p>
<p>Example Firstus: It was a new group&#8217;s first game, a spy campaign, and we were playing out the PCs&#8217; first introduction to each other.  One of the players was playing an African-American tech expert.  When she described her PC&#8217;s appearance, one of the players blurted out, &#8220;Why are you playing a &#8212; &#8221; and then he used a racist term for an African-American.  We all took a deep breath and asked him very politely, &#8220;Is that your character saying that?&#8221;  He looked confused and told us, &#8220;No.  But she&#8217;s White; why&#8217;s she gotta be playing a &#8212; &#8221; and then he used that racist term again.  At that point, I informed him coldly that such terms were not going to be used in my home, not unless a PC or NPC used them for characterization and maybe not even then.  His only response was to ask me whether he had to expect any Black NPCs among the good guys in the game.  Yes, he did, and I tried to be courteous and positive when I told him in effect that I refused to excise all Black PCs and NPCs from my campaign merely to make him comfortable in his racism.  He apologized to the player of the African-American tech expert, refused to look at her for the rest of the game, and twitched a lot.  None of us were upset when he decided not to show up for the next gaming session.</p>
<p>Example Secondus: This time, the new player was the roommate of another player.  His first game, he discovered that two male PCs were lovers.  He stopped the play by complaining that he didn&#8217;t come to a game to see &#8220;sick things like that&#8221;.  While the player who&#8217;d brought him flushed red with embarrassment, we informed the new player that the two male players playing the gay PCs were lovers in real life.  We also pointed out that another male player was bisexual and one of the two women players was a lesbian.  He stared at us like we were Deep Ones at Innsmouth, then demanded we admit we were just making this up to tease him.  He said to us, &#8220;I thought this was a Christian game.&#8221;  Well, games have no religion, we pointed out, but most of us attended the same Christian church &#8212; a gay-friendly Christian church.  &#8220;I don&#8217;t mind playing with you as long as they play normal people not gay people,&#8221; he said.  At that point, we thanked him for his time and suggested he game elsewhere.</p>
<p>I agree with you that we should be considerate about other people&#8217;s beliefs and creeds.  The purpose of an RPG is fun, not enlightenment and not a civics lesson.</p>
<p>However, there are times when we should draw that line in the sand and say, &#8220;No, I will not accommodate you in your racism or your homophobia or your hatreds.&#8221;  There aren&#8217;t many, but they are there.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 04:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-426</guid>
		<description>&quot;For magic to work, even in the hands of a villain, even conceptually, implies that something not of God has power over mortals beyond what power they voluntarily give him (as I understand it), and is therefore banned.&quot;

Oi vey. Has this man not read the Bible, the book of Revelation in particular?  The Bible makes no bones about the fact that we live in a world of angels and demons and, ergo, supernatural interference, aka magic.  

I sympathize with those who struggle to understand how the game interacts with their religious convictions in the real life, but I cringe at your friend&#039;s interpretation of the Bible.  (Wrong forum, I know.)

Shalom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For magic to work, even in the hands of a villain, even conceptually, implies that something not of God has power over mortals beyond what power they voluntarily give him (as I understand it), and is therefore banned.&#8221;</p>
<p>Oi vey. Has this man not read the Bible, the book of Revelation in particular?  The Bible makes no bones about the fact that we live in a world of angels and demons and, ergo, supernatural interference, aka magic.  </p>
<p>I sympathize with those who struggle to understand how the game interacts with their religious convictions in the real life, but I cringe at your friend&#8217;s interpretation of the Bible.  (Wrong forum, I know.)</p>
<p>Shalom.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-418</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-418</guid>
		<description>Actually, it would have been offensive to him even if the character was portrayed even as an arch-fiend and butcher on the order of hannibal lector. The reason is that his religion puts the fundamental into fundamentalism - you have to practice their moral and religious code in every thought, word, and action, or you place your soul at risk. It doesn&#039;t matter how many hours you spend helping the poor or how much you donate to charity or what you are like the other 6½ days a week, ANY deviation is a sin and a blasphemy.

For magic to work, even in the hands of a villain, even conceptually, implies that something not of God has power over mortals beyond what power they voluntarily give him (as I understand it), and is therefore banned. Your position rests on distinguishing between a pretence and real life, and that is incompatable with a requirement to be faithful in &quot;thought, word, and deed&quot;. To the followers of such religion, playing a killer or a thief in a game is just as big a black mark as actually committing such acts, and protestations to the contrary are on a par with &quot;I smoked marijouna but did not inhale&quot;.

I don&#039;t personally agree with such a strict interpretation. But your last point is spot on the money; if there was not only no magic, but no seeming of magic, it was fine. It&#039;s worth remembering that he was struggling because he didn&#039;t agree with what he had been taught, but still believed in the faith; he was struggling to reconcile his personal beliefs with what he had been told he had to believe by people he trusted absolutely.

Sooner or later, we all discover something that runs counter to what we&#039;ve been taught to believe. It starts with the realisation that there&#039;s no santa claus. From that point on, we experience a perpetual struggle to reconcile our own observations and opinions with superior authority. He just had a sharper case of it to deal with than most people, is all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, it would have been offensive to him even if the character was portrayed even as an arch-fiend and butcher on the order of hannibal lector. The reason is that his religion puts the fundamental into fundamentalism &#8211; you have to practice their moral and religious code in every thought, word, and action, or you place your soul at risk. It doesn&#8217;t matter how many hours you spend helping the poor or how much you donate to charity or what you are like the other 6½ days a week, ANY deviation is a sin and a blasphemy.</p>
<p>For magic to work, even in the hands of a villain, even conceptually, implies that something not of God has power over mortals beyond what power they voluntarily give him (as I understand it), and is therefore banned. Your position rests on distinguishing between a pretence and real life, and that is incompatable with a requirement to be faithful in &#8220;thought, word, and deed&#8221;. To the followers of such religion, playing a killer or a thief in a game is just as big a black mark as actually committing such acts, and protestations to the contrary are on a par with &#8220;I smoked marijouna but did not inhale&#8221;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t personally agree with such a strict interpretation. But your last point is spot on the money; if there was not only no magic, but no seeming of magic, it was fine. It&#8217;s worth remembering that he was struggling because he didn&#8217;t agree with what he had been taught, but still believed in the faith; he was struggling to reconcile his personal beliefs with what he had been told he had to believe by people he trusted absolutely.</p>
<p>Sooner or later, we all discover something that runs counter to what we&#8217;ve been taught to believe. It starts with the realisation that there&#8217;s no santa claus. From that point on, we experience a perpetual struggle to reconcile our own observations and opinions with superior authority. He just had a sharper case of it to deal with than most people, is all.</p>
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		<title>By: Somebody Else</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-404</link>
		<dc:creator>Somebody Else</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-404</guid>
		<description>I have to admit, I find it very hard indeed to put myself in the position of that particular gamer. I can see objecting morally to styles of play or specific portrayals of content - if, for example, a character is made to blatantly look and behave like Stalin, and this character is portrayed sympathetically, for example, I&#039;d have qualms about it. My problem is this: That character wouldn&#039;t be offensive if it was portrayed negatively, or even in shades of grey. I can&#039;t really see how content itself can be offensive in this manner. Surely, the D&amp;D-style magic system is just a magic system? Playing with it surely says nothing about one&#039;s disposition towards real-life magic, if such a thing had existed, any more than playing a killer or thief means that one condones theft and murder in reality? And, surely, if one objects to magic - or theft, or murder, or Stalin - one can simply start one&#039;s own campaign in which it is portrayed as evil? Or even where there is no such thing at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to admit, I find it very hard indeed to put myself in the position of that particular gamer. I can see objecting morally to styles of play or specific portrayals of content &#8211; if, for example, a character is made to blatantly look and behave like Stalin, and this character is portrayed sympathetically, for example, I&#8217;d have qualms about it. My problem is this: That character wouldn&#8217;t be offensive if it was portrayed negatively, or even in shades of grey. I can&#8217;t really see how content itself can be offensive in this manner. Surely, the D&amp;D-style magic system is just a magic system? Playing with it surely says nothing about one&#8217;s disposition towards real-life magic, if such a thing had existed, any more than playing a killer or thief means that one condones theft and murder in reality? And, surely, if one objects to magic &#8211; or theft, or murder, or Stalin &#8211; one can simply start one&#8217;s own campaign in which it is portrayed as evil? Or even where there is no such thing at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-60</guid>
		<description>Any time... It is all about boundaries. When I run games for my younger nephew I don&#039;t play &quot;grim and gritty&quot;. I try to focus more on the &quot;action hero&quot; style. You have to cater to your audience... whoever they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any time&#8230; It is all about boundaries. When I run games for my younger nephew I don&#8217;t play &#8220;grim and gritty&#8221;. I try to focus more on the &#8220;action hero&#8221; style. You have to cater to your audience&#8230; whoever they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bourke</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Bourke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-55</guid>
		<description>@ Michael: I agree completely - and not just in gaming, either. Nothing wrong with pushing the boundaries and many players are easily able to distinguish between the fiction within a game and the reality of their own beliefs - but everyone will have lines of morality and ethics and faith and philosophy that they will not want to breach. Sounds like you had a great GM when you got started!

@ Jason: Glad to have a comment adding to the positive side of the ledger. I must say that I was a little concerned about posting this blog entry in the first place, as it seemed to be an open invitation to flame wars with intolerant people. I rewrote the blog three times before I was satisfied that my points were being made as objectively as possible, and then trusted the gaming community to respond thoughtfully and with integrity. I have to say that I have been proven absolutely right to do so by the insightful discussion that&#039;s ensued. Well done, folks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Michael: I agree completely &#8211; and not just in gaming, either. Nothing wrong with pushing the boundaries and many players are easily able to distinguish between the fiction within a game and the reality of their own beliefs &#8211; but everyone will have lines of morality and ethics and faith and philosophy that they will not want to breach. Sounds like you had a great GM when you got started!</p>
<p>@ Jason: Glad to have a comment adding to the positive side of the ledger. I must say that I was a little concerned about posting this blog entry in the first place, as it seemed to be an open invitation to flame wars with intolerant people. I rewrote the blog three times before I was satisfied that my points were being made as objectively as possible, and then trusted the gaming community to respond thoughtfully and with integrity. I have to say that I have been proven absolutely right to do so by the insightful discussion that&#8217;s ensued. Well done, folks!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/moral-qualms-on-the-richter-scale/comment-page-1/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=88#comment-50</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t complain about religion and gaming. It scored me my first five hard back books for $20.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t complain about religion and gaming. It scored me my first five hard back books for $20.</p>
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