Comments on: How Much Is That Warhorse In The Window? – Pricing Of Goods in D&D http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/ Expert tips and how-to's on every aspect of creating and running exceptional campaigns. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 13:31:47 +0000 hourly 1 By: Amoucky http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-1019 Amoucky Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:52:04 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-1019 You give a lot of detail! I have studied different articles written by other people on the subject, and must admit that your experiencea showed and made your points compelling. You give a lot of detail! I have studied different articles written by other people on the subject, and must admit that your experiencea showed and made your points compelling.

]]> By: Mike http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-1017 Mike Wed, 26 Aug 2009 04:34:33 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-1017 Nice to hear from a different perspective, Lukc. I agree, 'arcane' coinage details are only one of a number of different ways to ground a campaign's plausibility, and not one that I would ever have chosen if I didn't have access to "10-Foot Pole," which had done so much of the work already. <em>With</em> that volume at hand, though, all that was needed was a little thought and a conversion mechanism; it took me longer to write the Blog post than it did to carry out the work it describes! And that's why I thought the post of potential interest to others; with both the supplement and myself doing the heavy lifting, what might have been far too much work for a GM to contemplate for limited returns becomes a practical and practicable approach. Make no mistake, you and I are using the same primary weapons to anchor our campaigns, but they are weapons that only become effective once players have gotten their heads into the campaign, learnt the factions and their positions, and generally immersed themselves in the campaign for a while. I wanted a tool to use to convey some of that information early in the campaign, even before play, but with a relatively 'tangible' ongoing reminder. It even produced a pythonesque running gag for a short while, as stamping errors and poor production quality gave the faces on the coins slightly different expressions; one PC became very superstitious, drawing at random from his coin pouch each time a plan was proposed and assessing whether or not the Gods smiled on the plan by whether or not they got a 'happy face' or a 'frowning face'! Nice to hear from a different perspective, Lukc. I agree, ‘arcane’ coinage details are only one of a number of different ways to ground a campaign’s plausibility, and not one that I would ever have chosen if I didn’t have access to “10-Foot Pole,” which had done so much of the work already. With that volume at hand, though, all that was needed was a little thought and a conversion mechanism; it took me longer to write the Blog post than it did to carry out the work it describes! And that’s why I thought the post of potential interest to others; with both the supplement and myself doing the heavy lifting, what might have been far too much work for a GM to contemplate for limited returns becomes a practical and practicable approach.

Make no mistake, you and I are using the same primary weapons to anchor our campaigns, but they are weapons that only become effective once players have gotten their heads into the campaign, learnt the factions and their positions, and generally immersed themselves in the campaign for a while. I wanted a tool to use to convey some of that information early in the campaign, even before play, but with a relatively ‘tangible’ ongoing reminder.

It even produced a pythonesque running gag for a short while, as stamping errors and poor production quality gave the faces on the coins slightly different expressions; one PC became very superstitious, drawing at random from his coin pouch each time a plan was proposed and assessing whether or not the Gods smiled on the plan by whether or not they got a ‘happy face’ or a ‘frowning face’!

]]> By: Lukc http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-1016 Lukc Tue, 25 Aug 2009 19:07:05 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-1016 Wow ... umm ... I think the debate between Adam and Mike has pretty much taken care of anything I might have added. Once upon a time I used to try and make sensible, functional monetary and economic systems for my D&D settings, I would work out bestiaries and religious orders, calendars, holy days, detailed histories, detailed lists of items ... ... but I have to admit I've never really found all that work to make much of a difference to the quality of our games. Especially considering how much work it took. So I tossed it all out, left a large part of the idea-making to the PCs and embarked on a more "interactive story-telling" approach. I know you argue for "anchoring" through believable details, but I think going into such detail on money is just too ... arcane. We usually anchor our game world through real-politik, horrible human failings, monty python humour and the like. Different strokes for different folks. :) .-= Lukc´s last blog ..<a href="http://prekomorec.blogspot.com/2009/08/thought-those-who-enjoy-bemoaning.html">Thought: Those Who Enjoy [Be]moaning</a> =-. Wow … umm … I think the debate between Adam and Mike has pretty much taken care of anything I might have added. Once upon a time I used to try and make sensible, functional monetary and economic systems for my D&D settings, I would work out bestiaries and religious orders, calendars, holy days, detailed histories, detailed lists of items …

… but I have to admit I’ve never really found all that work to make much of a difference to the quality of our games. Especially considering how much work it took. So I tossed it all out, left a large part of the idea-making to the PCs and embarked on a more “interactive story-telling” approach.

I know you argue for “anchoring” through believable details, but I think going into such detail on money is just too … arcane. We usually anchor our game world through real-politik, horrible human failings, monty python humour and the like. Different strokes for different folks.

:)
.-= Lukc´s last blog ..Thought: Those Who Enjoy [Be]moaning =-.

]]> By: Mike http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-972 Mike Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:24:24 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-972 Thanks, Rafe. I just read it; you explain it fairly well, at least to someone who's played plenty of board games. While it wouldn't fit any of my current campaigns, I'll have to try adapting it to D&D (where you don't expend character construction points) at a future time. I'll also have to think long and hard about whether it's a better system than the rather more complicated one partially devised for my superhero game, which is based on a completely customised version of the hero system rules, where it could make a lot of sense in a superhero context. Thanks, Rafe. I just read it; you explain it fairly well, at least to someone who’s played plenty of board games. While it wouldn’t fit any of my current campaigns, I’ll have to try adapting it to D&D (where you don’t expend character construction points) at a future time. I’ll also have to think long and hard about whether it’s a better system than the rather more complicated one partially devised for my superhero game, which is based on a completely customised version of the hero system rules, where it could make a lot of sense in a superhero context.

]]> By: Rafe http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-970 Rafe Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:25:50 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-970 Hey, Mike. The post about the abstract wealth system that BW uses has been made on my blog. The link should be just below this main text. .-= Rafe´s last blog ..<a href="http://rpgbehindthescreens.blogspot.com/2009/08/abstract-wealth.html">Abstract Wealth</a> =-. Hey, Mike. The post about the abstract wealth system that BW uses has been made on my blog. The link should be just below this main text.
.-= Rafe´s last blog ..Abstract Wealth =-.

]]> By: Mike http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-969 Mike Wed, 12 Aug 2009 03:09:38 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-969 @Adam: I love it when people have a legitimate disagreement with me on a point like this, because it shows that no-one has all the answers or "the perfect formula", and generally leads to really interesting conversations. My approach works with my group, and from what you've written, your approach works with yours. In part, this comes down to the players, in part to the relative strengths and weaknesses of the GM, and in part it's due to the environment in which you game, something I intend to address in a future blog post. Suffice it to say for now that the environment in which my group operates is full of real-world distractions, making it harder for the group to 'get into the game', and anything that helps even a little in that respect is thoroughlly merited; that as a GM, designing "kick-ass" adventures comes fairly naturally to me and can often be done on the spot without the players being able to tell the difference, and that my players are anaraks who do notice these details - some of them have been at my table for more than 20 years, and one teaches History for a living. Also that my players like to have the campaign background dribbled out to them in 'bite-sized' chunks, instead of in big meaty slices. I'm not sure whether that means that you got lucky when they were handing out players, or I did! Six-of-one and half-a-dozen of the other, I suspect; but the differences between gaming groups do create different standards of expectation in different areas of the game. Satisfying those expectations is the challenge faced by all GMs. But, as a general principle, the more fantastic and high-fantasy the game, the more valuable it can be to anchor it to reality at one or two points, just to provide a common frame of referance. @Rafe: Thanks for the suggestion. I've never looked at Burning Wheel's Resources system; where is it written up (what book or website?) Maybe you could do a summary on your blog (I suspect it may be of interest to others, such as Adam, as well as to myself) and then drop a link into this discussion so we could all stop by and take a look? @Adam: I love it when people have a legitimate disagreement with me on a point like this, because it shows that no-one has all the answers or “the perfect formula”, and generally leads to really interesting conversations. My approach works with my group, and from what you’ve written, your approach works with yours. In part, this comes down to the players, in part to the relative strengths and weaknesses of the GM, and in part it’s due to the environment in which you game, something I intend to address in a future blog post. Suffice it to say for now that the environment in which my group operates is full of real-world distractions, making it harder for the group to ‘get into the game’, and anything that helps even a little in that respect is thoroughlly merited; that as a GM, designing “kick-ass” adventures comes fairly naturally to me and can often be done on the spot without the players being able to tell the difference, and that my players are anaraks who do notice these details – some of them have been at my table for more than 20 years, and one teaches History for a living. Also that my players like to have the campaign background dribbled out to them in ‘bite-sized’ chunks, instead of in big meaty slices.

I’m not sure whether that means that you got lucky when they were handing out players, or I did! Six-of-one and half-a-dozen of the other, I suspect; but the differences between gaming groups do create different standards of expectation in different areas of the game. Satisfying those expectations is the challenge faced by all GMs.

But, as a general principle, the more fantastic and high-fantasy the game, the more valuable it can be to anchor it to reality at one or two points, just to provide a common frame of referance.

@Rafe: Thanks for the suggestion. I’ve never looked at Burning Wheel’s Resources system; where is it written up (what book or website?) Maybe you could do a summary on your blog (I suspect it may be of interest to others, such as Adam, as well as to myself) and then drop a link into this discussion so we could all stop by and take a look?

]]> By: Rafe http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-968 Rafe Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:31:56 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-968 This is why an abstract system like Burning Wheel's Resources works well. It eliminates "bean counting" in favour of a broader idea that allows you to create fiction around buying/selling. .-= Rafe´s last blog ..<a href="http://rpgbehindthescreens.blogspot.com/2009/07/luke-crane-mentions-realm-guard.html">Luke Crane mentions Realm Guard!</a> =-. This is why an abstract system like Burning Wheel’s Resources works well. It eliminates “bean counting” in favour of a broader idea that allows you to create fiction around buying/selling.
.-= Rafe´s last blog ..Luke Crane mentions Realm Guard! =-.

]]> By: Adam http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-967 Adam Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:54:22 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-967 @ Mike: I respectfully disagree with the idea that taking the time to figure out the historically accurate price of an item makes the game world "Make sense" to the players therefore enhancing the more fantastic elements of the game. To me and my group of players the price of an item is just as abstract of a concept as Hit Points and exp. We don't worry about why a barbarian has 12hp or why 1000 exp makes us 2nd level or why a dagger cost 2gp. These are simply underlying game mechanics that must be dealt with as we move the story along. Rarely does the price of an item come up in-game. To me the extra time spent converting prices from arbitrary PHB prices into more reality based historical prices doesn't grant that much of a benefit given the amount of time and energy spent on the task. Besides, most players wouldn't know the differance anyhow. @ Mike:
I respectfully disagree with the idea that taking the time to figure out the historically accurate price of an item makes the game world “Make sense” to the players therefore enhancing the more fantastic elements of the game. To me and my group of players the price of an item is just as abstract of a concept as Hit Points and exp. We don’t worry about why a barbarian has 12hp or why 1000 exp makes us 2nd level or why a dagger cost 2gp. These are simply underlying game mechanics that must be dealt with as we move the story along. Rarely does the price of an item come up in-game.

To me the extra time spent converting prices from arbitrary PHB prices into more reality based historical prices doesn’t grant that much of a benefit given the amount of time and energy spent on the task. Besides, most players wouldn’t know the differance anyhow.

]]> By: Mike http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-966 Mike Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:13:43 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-966 While I agree with the premise of your statement, I disagree with your conclusions, Adam. Yes, D&D is a fantasy game with many fantastic elements; to my mind, that only means that the non-fantastic elements should at least be within walking distance of historical accuracy just to make the game feel plausible. Without that, it's hard for players to lose themselves within the game. The object isn't to contribute directly to the enjoyment of the game; it's to help the game world "make sense" to the players, so that the more fantastic elements remain wondrous, and so enhance the enjoyment that those elements of the game provide. While I agree with the premise of your statement, I disagree with your conclusions, Adam. Yes, D&D is a fantasy game with many fantastic elements; to my mind, that only means that the non-fantastic elements should at least be within walking distance of historical accuracy just to make the game feel plausible. Without that, it’s hard for players to lose themselves within the game.

The object isn’t to contribute directly to the enjoyment of the game; it’s to help the game world “make sense” to the players, so that the more fantastic elements remain wondrous, and so enhance the enjoyment that those elements of the game provide.

]]> By: Adam http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/how-much-is-that-warhorse/comment-page-1/#comment-965 Adam Tue, 11 Aug 2009 13:15:52 +0000 http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/?p=904#comment-965 D&D is a fantasy game not a historically accurate learning experience. Figuring out the historical price of items based on real-world history isn't going to contribute much to a game in terms of overall enjoyment. Time spent figuring it out historically accurate prices could be better used to craft an awesome adventure, plot-twist, character goal, etc. In addition Rampaging dragons, powerful undead, beholders, and kobolds never appeared in history. Should we eliminate them from our games? No, because these non-historical things are what make this game exciting. To conclude, D&D is played differently by different people. My advice is to forget about being historically accurate and get back to having fun with your friends/family. Isn't that what D&D is all about? D&D is a fantasy game not a historically accurate learning experience. Figuring out the historical price of items based on real-world history isn’t going to contribute much to a game in terms of overall enjoyment. Time spent figuring it out historically accurate prices could be better used to craft an awesome adventure, plot-twist, character goal, etc.

In addition Rampaging dragons, powerful undead, beholders, and kobolds never appeared in history. Should we eliminate them from our games? No, because these non-historical things are what make this game exciting.

To conclude, D&D is played differently by different people. My advice is to forget about being historically accurate and get back to having fun with your friends/family. Isn’t that what D&D is all about?

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